Photographer Dan Sundahl

In this compelling interview, Patrick talks with Dan Sundahl, a highly successful and unique artist known as Dan Sun Photo Art on social media. Dan's journey to finding his niche in art began unexpectedly through his own therapy for PTSD developed while working as a paramedic firefighter. His evocative artwork, which features heavy themes and often comes with a trigger warning, has resonated deeply with many, even inspiring people to tattoo his work on their bodies. Dan shares how being authentic and vulnerable in his creations has been key to his success and discusses his various revenue streams, from prints and photo books to public speaking engagements. This episode offers an insightful look into balancing art as therapy, finding one's niche organically, and the importance of outsourcing tasks to focus on creativity.

Podcast Transcribe

Patrick Shanahan: Does an artist or a photographer need a niche to be successful? If so, how do you go about finding that niche? In today's interview, Dan's niche found him, and it found him as a result of him not even looking for it. This interview is incredible. Dan Sundahl, Dan Sun Photo Art on anywhere you find him on the socials, is just an incredibly talented artist. His story is incredibly unique. He knew he found his niche when multiple people got his artwork tattooed on their bodies. Probably a good indicator of when you know you've found a niche, but his story is mega interesting, incredibly successful artist, multiple different revenue sources in the business. And in his own words, his work comes with a trigger warning—and not a trigger warning in this charged political climate that we're in now, but a trigger warning in the sense that the work is so heavy and so evocative in the themes that he deals with that he literally issues a trigger warning when you look at his work. So can't wait for you to see this. Links to all of his socials, all of his websites, all the things in the show notes, wherever you're watching this. And here's what happens when your niche finds you.

Hey guys, Patrick back here with another customer interview, and I am extremely fired up for this one. I have an incredibly talented photographer in Dan. Give me your last name again, cause I had Sundall. Yes. Otherwise known by Dan Sun Photo Art. Okay, on his Instagram social handle. And I've not met him yet, which is crazy. And we're going to get into how long he's been a customer and all of those things, but what he wouldn't know is that we have our system, our entire art sales that go down on the platform is stitched into a channel. And what happens is that when the sales come in, we see an image of the photo, and you can go into that channel and like literally scroll through every single solitary thing. I have been seeing your work sell in that channel for, I'm like, a number of years, like a number of years. And what strikes me when I say I'm fired up for this interview, like you have a defined niche, you have a crazy defined niche, and I cannot wait to talk about the defined niche. So this interview is just going to be absolutely wild. We will be taking comments that you have for Dan, and you can ask him directly. And we might get into some of those, but I want to start with the origin story. Why don't you give us a high level? How did you become an artist? How did you get into all this? And what is your niche?

Dan Sundahl: It's fine. It's a really, I don't, I think it's a unique story. Probably not the way most artists get started, maybe it is, but I was a paramedic firefighter for 20 years and developed PTSD in 2014. And part of my therapy was to create. This artwork, I was doing photography of my bulldogs and landscaping and stuff like that. And then my psychologist recommended that I use my hobby as a way for therapy. I'm actually going to graduate this year as a counseling therapist, so I understand why he was saying that by accessing the creative part of my brain as part of my therapy. So a lot of the images, and we should probably warn people that I'm not sure what you're going to show, but some of my images are pretty, pretty graphic, could be triggering for some people. Yeah. And the reason I like that is that it had to be authentic for me in order for it to be therapeutic for me, but being vulnerable and authentic really made that connection with my followers that really looked at the images and really connected to it. So my origin is really my own therapy, which was actually, I think the reason for my success was that it was really authentic imagery that really connected with other people. So how it started, I never really thought people would like what I did. I thought I was the only one that felt that way, but lots of people are really connected to it. And to be honest, Patrick, don't tell anybody, but sometimes I'm shocked people buy my stuff. It's like some of it's really graphic, but I love it when something like that people buy 'cause then I know that they really connected and they have their own story behind that image. Yeah, they have their own background to it, and I love that. That's the connection that they make to my artwork.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, it's wild on so many levels to me, Dan, because I see all the artists on our platform. I'm constantly getting these questions about niche and do I need to have the niche, and artists are always getting this advice. You really got to do is you just got to figure out what your niche is, and then once you have a niche, you'll be great. And so many people are doing landscape photos or painting flowers or this or that. And it's okay. They're trying to figure out their way through a niche. You have one of the most insane defined niches I've ever seen in my entire life. And I don't think anyone would know to search for it. It is so damn creative and completely different than anything I've ever seen. How would I search Google for it? I couldn't write, I couldn't. And so he gave the disclaimer on, on, on some of the imagery. I want to show some of that on Instagram and what it looks like, but this comes from his 20-year career as an EMT, it was an EMT and just general paramedic. Is that what you were?

Dan Sundahl: Yeah. I was an advanced care paramedic and firefighter full time for 20 years. That's what I did. And then, yeah, it was, so my niche developed naturally where people, again, they really made that connection. And for me, art really is more about the artists and the people. The images they create are a result of the experiences that they're having. Like some of my favorite artists that are more interested in their life at that time that made them create the images that they did. That's what I find really interesting. Uh, when I, the artists that I follow, someone, I'll go, why did they create that? What's the story behind this one? That's what I find. That's what I personally find interesting.

Patrick Shanahan:Yeah. And your images, the whole niche, if I had to describe it with one word, it's just heavy. It's a heavy meat. Yeah, it's crazy. And so you're dealing with these scenes that I feel like works on multiple different levels. If you just looked at it, I don't think you would immediately figure out what the actual, where you're actually at. And let me see if I have this right, because maybe I don't have it right. There's the heaviness of these situations, all of these service calls that you show up to on an EMT where some of the most horrific stuff could possibly be happening in the world, right? Terrible injuries, mental health issues, and the depravity. So there's you guys being heroes and showing up and dealing with this, and you have some of that in the work, and it's incredibly evocative, but then the real niche is the impact in the toll going to these calls on a daily basis is, has on the EMTs and the firefighters that are actually doing it day in and day out. And how do you survive that? How do you inure yourself? Uh, how do you wall yourself off against that so that it doesn't break you down? And is that somewhat of an accurate read on it?

Dan Sundahl:Yeah. And although the artwork is pretty dark or heavy, like you said, it's very therapeutic. So it looks, and it really depends on the viewer, right? I don't, some people just don't get it, which is fine. I don't expect everyone to understand it. And the truth is like the really heavy artwork, I don't really even create for other people. It's my own way to get my stuff out. And when people look at it, it's how they interpret it, right? Some people may look at it and based on their own experiences, really get it and feel understood, which is actually a positive therapeutic process versus people not maybe being in the industry or not having experiences with trauma, where they look at it and I'm like, well, what the hell is with this guy? Like, why is he creating images like that? That's so messed up. And that's, I'm totally fine with that. Like, I'm not expecting everyone. My mom doesn't really understand my artwork. She goes, damn, why did you create this weird artwork? I don't get it. I'm like, mom, it's not for you. It's okay. Fine. It's a, it's my own thing. And I've learned that the more authentic I can be in creating the artwork, the more therapeutic it is for me. And the more connected I am to the people that follow my images.

Patrick Shanahan: And are you quickly? I want to, I'm very curious on who your audience is and who purchased this. And I don't know how much you wanted to disclose sales figures, but you sell a lot of art. Like you sell a tremendous amount of art. And for a lot of people, that's probably really hard to wrap your head around. Like this is a heavy piece of art in terms of your creation process. They're all starting with photographs, but what are you doing to getting this like painting effect to the entire thing?

Dan Sundahl: Yeah, so it starts as a photograph and all the images are staged so they're based on actual events, but they're all staged. And I use angels and demons to represent trauma and recovery, and I digitally draw and paint on top of that. So right on to the my left here, I have a big Cintiq display. Got it. It's big 27-inch Cintiq display, and I have a digital pen, which is tilt and pressure sensitive, and digitally dropping on top of that image based on how I feel, versus what I actually saw. So it's an emotional process for me. And when I'm done, once I can purge that feeling that I had into that image, then I know, and in order to do that, when you look at a lot of the artwork, there's a lot of things hidden in there that you may not see the first time. Like there's a ghost in that one. There's a lot of ghosts, lots of spirits and images that you may not notice right away. And I do that to portray the emotions that I have that clearly weren't there for the photograph.

Patrick Shanahan: Amazing. And you look at that, you like, I look at this work and I'm like, who is the audience here? Who is purchasing this stuff? Because it is so heavy and it's, I thought, are these all fellow firefighters and EMT and emergency responders that are like totally resonating with this, or is it just a much broader audience and anything, anyone that's just touched this level of trauma, right?

Dan Sundahl: Yeah, I, I think it, and it's not necessarily emergency workers that are buying my stuff. It's like a lot of the messages and emails that I get, it's from other people that can relate in some way to the images, either from other past trauma that they look at it and they attach their own experiences to it. And that's really where the connection is. And I think as an artist, as a successful artist, it's making that connection to the people. And really the secret for me is not creating artwork that I think people are going to want to buy. It's being authentic in creating the artwork. And that's how I know the connection is going to happen. And that's my, and the final thing I really, it all happened by accident really, I never thought anyone would be interested in, in what I was doing or what I was creating because it was really for me, my own therapy, which is wonderful and really validated what I, how I felt and what I was doing.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, which is just wild. Like it's almost the, the only thing I can think of is like the Harry Potter reference in the sorcerer's stone where like the smart trick that Dumbledore did is that only people that don't want the stone. Yeah. Could actually get the stone, right? And here you were, you didn't necessarily want a niche, you know, you, this was to do something else completely, which was to, to, to clear your own mind and get over your own mental health issues. And you found it that way, which is wild, right? You found it not by looking for it, not by strategically going after it, which is just crazy. I want to hear, I want to hear about how you found us and how the journey started and how it's gone so far. I'm curious about that. But one thing I got to ask that I, that I couldn't let go. And I don't know if I'll find it quickly, but. Dude, how heavy is it to have multiple people that have tattooed your work on them? I know right that is that just blows my mind when people ask me my permission to get one of my art pieces tattooed on them. I'm like, are you kidding me? What an incredible honor as an artist to have people that want to get my images tattooed on them like that, like, I'm like, God, that's, of course, incredible honor to have that happen.

Dan Sundahl: Yeah, what, I mean, I can't find the post. There's a couple of them in there, but I saw that and I was like, dude, what a level of flattery that is. That's insane. What that's, but that really shows, and I feel it's actually less about the artwork and more about the connection that person has to it. To that, like if that person didn't have the connection, then they wouldn't want to tattoo it on their body. Right. But I'm grateful that I was able to create an art piece that they resonated with so much that reflected how they were feeling to that point. That's yeah. There's no greater honor. I think for an artist, honestly.

Patrick Shanahan: Okay. How do you know you've nailed your niche, right? How do you, you've nailed market product kit when someone is ink your work onto their body? I love it. It's in some people, they show me and they ask for permission. I'm like, yes, the only thing I have is please let me know, show me a picture when it's done. Cause I want to add it to the, my question and all these, a lot of these images are friends of mine that post their fellow emergency workers. And I send it to them. I'm like, look, you are permanently tattooed on this. It was paramedic in Pennsylvania's leg or something. And they're like, Oh, I can't believe, yeah, it's just, it's wonderful.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. Just on so many different levels. Okay. I want to get into the, how you found us and how you got signed up, but there's one mental health trauma question that I think only you could answer. So I'm going to put it up on the screen here. They were diagnosed with CPTSD in 2017 from childhood trauma, 40 years ago. So how do you balance the disclosure to connect without overshadowing the personal therapeutic details? I thought that was, yeah, that's a great question. And like I said, this is a great example of. For me, I create the artwork based on the traumatic experiences I had as an emergency services worker. But that's a very small, when you look at the overall population of people that suffer from trauma, people with childhood trauma, like that is a massively huge, way more than emergency workers. However, yeah, that's a great question. And sometimes something will pop into my head. I'm like, okay, I need to get this out. I need to process it by getting it out of my brain and artwork. And then I asked, okay, I don't know if I should share this one. There's one called the demon eats the ambulance driver and it's pretty dark. Yeah. And I'm like, Oh God, I don't know if I should. But the truth is the more authentic I am to what I'm creating. And as long as I don't censor myself, so I don't think, okay, what are people going to think when I create this? I, that doesn't cross my mind because if it does, I'm not going to be creating images that connect with people or more importantly, it's not going to be therapeutic for me. And I find that the more vulnerable I am in creating the artwork, the more I connect with people. So if I think, Oh, I don't know if I should do this. And when I share it, those are the ones that really get the most positive feedback. It's not always positive, like there's lots of people that send me messages that are, you know, what the fuck are you doing? This is, you shouldn't be. And a lot of negative feedback. But for me, when I hear that feedback, that tells me, yeah, you also connected to that. Otherwise you wouldn't be taking the time to send me that message. So for me, great artwork, if someone has a visceral response to it, either positive or negative, that's successful artwork. No, I people are reacting to that. I so agree with that and again, this is another one of those things it's hard because When you create and you drive those types of comments, it's very easy to get down in the weeds or get down in the depths or let it affect you personally. And when you deal with enough of it, and my God, I cannot even begin to tell you how much I had to deal with it. You develop a profound sense of empathy through all of it. Because even the negative comments, as human beings, we're meant to react to those like they're a mirror. Like somehow it's reflecting something that you've done. Right? Or that you had that idea and you realize it's not a mirror, it's a window, it's a window into where they are totally. And it's a window into their mental state. And, and then you get that profound sense of empathy and you're like, Oh man, heavy, just heavy across the board. How did you find us originally?

Dan Sundahl: Yeah. So I was, like I said, I fell into this all by accident and people were asking me once I did. Finally decide to share, start sharing my images, which took a long time and there was such a positive response and people are inviting me to go exhibit my artwork at conferences and then they wanted me to talk about my experiences. I'm like, holy smokes. And then people were asking, can I get a copy? Can I buy it? And I'm like, oh, how do I sell artwork? This is all. Weird. And I really couldn't find, there's a lot of like photography portfolio websites out there, but they really weren't specific to selling artwork and displaying the artwork where people can look at it and it's geared more toward buying it versus viewing it. So when I did all my research, I found art storefronts and did some talk, thought a lot about it. And God, I think that's been six, seven, probably eight. Seven, eight years ago now, I think it's, it's been a long time. And what I really liked, which I wish one day I really liked what our store fronts is that they have, you guys have the, these are, this is how you do it. Like they show you, here's your daily task, like the, which God, I wish I had more time to follow more strictly, but it's, this is how you do it. It's not okay. Here's a place you can put all your artwork. Just put it on there and then advertise this. No, this is how you put it on there. And this is how you market it. And this is how you sell it. I found that, but I just got so busy with so many other things. I don't, I'm, I'm not in tune with that as much as I would like to be, but I love that, that that is there. What is currently, what is the, first of all, have you, you've essentially gone full time and you're in school, but you quit your day job and your income's coming from your art and your books and everything else.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. What is, what is the revenue breakdown on how you do things between originals, prints, the photo books, and then you do a ton of public speaking too, which I imagine sells a bunch.

Dan Sundahl: Yeah. So I think the pro, the best thing that I did, probably the best advice I'd give anyone that's starting off to do well, hire an assistant as soon as you can. So I have an assistant that That goes through all my emails, they filter my emails and they manage a lot of the things that I don't want it because I want to, my goal is to create artwork. I want to create artwork. I want to grow my business. I want to, you know, help people like that's my dance on brand is what I want to work on. So I don't want to spend three or four hours a day reading emails and answering stuff and. So I hired an assistant really fairly early. She's been with me now, I think six or seven years, Lana, and she's fantastic. And that's really freed me up to grow my brand and grow my business, which has allowed me to, I just published my fourth art book. I'm going to be writing another book and I travel, I'm in New York city next week or next month for EMS week, be speaking there. And I, so I travel, I probably do 30, 30 events a year and yeah, it's turned into my full time.

Patrick Shanahan: Do you find that the public speaking events really help drive the art sales?

Dan Sundahl: Yes. Yeah. Every time. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. And like the majority of the conferences and events I go to are emergency services, but sometimes I go to other events like next week or next month, I'll be speaking at a leadership conference. And a lot of those people probably aren't going to be aware of my artwork, but they're going to see a lot of it on my presentation and I'm going to show how, what I've done to be a successful artist and the leadership. Practices that I've learned and the mistakes I made and they're going to be exposed to my artwork where they haven't before potentially. So yeah, it's a lot of opportunity that way. I'm very lucky.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. One of the other themes that I think is, it comes up all the time and it, and it, and it, and it's prevalent out there. And my advice is always that. Everybody thinks art sales are just based on the image itself, just based on the creation itself. Now, art sales are 50, 50 is the argument I always make. It's 50 percent the art and it's 50 percent the artist. And yes, the story is baked in there of course, but you're the brand just as much as the artwork is the brand. And during the course of constantly coaching and tutoring customers, all the struggles and the deficiencies and the hard stuff and the uncomfortable stuff. They're like, I just don't know if I should share this. I just, I just don't know if I should get into this. I don't want to talk about this or maybe I'm going through cancer. And you don't realize until you truly make yourself vulnerable and put yourself out there, how many people are just going through the exact same thing and how quickly that emotional connection happens, and we've seen it already in comments on this. Like, you think that no one else is dealing with that, and you think there's not a huge tribe out there, but boy, is there a huge tribe out there. I think it's an artist that censors themselves is horrible. I think if you are an artist, and you are censoring, and you're thinking, what are people going to think when I create this, you're not letting the artistic process flow. Like, I, yeah, I think that's a real shame if artists are blocking that creativity by Thinking what other people are going to think when they look at it.

Dan Sundahl: Yeah. And for me, I think, again, this is my own opinion. Art needs to have meaning. Good artwork needs to have meaning. And that meaning has to come from the artist. And if you, the more, when I have the idea in my head, so if I think, okay, this idea is in my head, I'm like, Oh, this is a complex idea. How am I going to get this out? I think about it. An image pops in, I stage it, the more accurate I can get to that initial idea I had in my head to what I create, the more successful the artwork is. And I, I don't think the, my, that does cross my mind, uh, people might be triggered by this or people aren't going to like this. It doesn't, that doesn't, once it comes in, I just throw that out. I don't, I have to be authentic and vulnerable in who I am and it's, and it works, but you're not, you're never going to be, you're never going to make everyone happy as an art. No artists should. I don't think.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. It's such wisdom. It's such wisdom. Easier said than done. Especially. Oh yeah. You know, era that we're in now, like it's tough being vulnerable and in exposing yourself that way. It's really hard. So give me a sense of the, the, the, the, the trajectory of the business year over year over year. Do you feel like it's just been slow and steady growth or you had some hockey stick moments going along?

Dan Sundahl:Um, yeah, it's been pretty, I think it's been slow and steady, but I know that I have to be, I know that my brand grows when I create artwork and the last couple of years, cause I've been in school full time. I haven't been creating as much as I want to, but I also know that. Even while going through school, it's going to, it's going to inspire me to create new artwork based on my experiences. And for me and any artist, the artwork I think should be reflective of their experiences. And so that's going to change, but it has been steady, steady growth over time. Uh, but I know now that I'm have new educations, my life is changing and I'm having new experiences. Uh, I think it's going to be growing even, even more. All right, which is more, I'm booking more exhibits. I'm booking more stuff and more speaking events. And that's what I love. Cause when I do that, I get to go and connect with people that have seen my artwork that I may haven't seen, that haven't met in person and they come up with me and they share what they, that artwork meant to them personally. And I, God, I love that. That's, that's fantastic. That because it really validates me. Yeah. I think it's been a slow, steady growth, but in order for that to happen, one thing I did learn, it's not going to happen on itself by itself. Like, okay, I'm going to create this image. Yeah. Okay. Now where's all the sales and where's all my followers. Yeah. It doesn't, it's not going to happen on its own. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way. Yeah. No. Now, currently you're over your overall sort of sales picture. You're in some brick and mortar galleries, right? Maybe. Like I said, I, I added a, I had a, have an assistant. So I have, there's galleries in my stuff. Like there's stuff in Finland. I think there's stuff in England. Yeah. And like I said, for me as an artist, I want to concentrate on making artwork. So I have my assistant kind of manage that stuff for me. Handle all of that. So she's doing a combination of admin and then some of the social posting as well. I take it. Yeah. So she does. And I'm actually, we're almost at the point where I need to, she needs an assistant. Yeah. Cause she's getting quite busy.

Patrick Shanahan: Oh, I would argue you're there already. We might be able to help you too with some of the stuff internally. We can talk about that later, but I think I'll give you the perfect analogy that I'm just going through in my mind. And one of the things that comes up. All the time. Okay. Is how do I price my art? And is there a formula to price my art and a couple of interviews back that I did on one of these and my position, by the way, is the formula is complete bullshit. And the reason the formula is complete bullshit is because. You either have demand or you don't. If you don't have demand, there's no fancy pricing formula that's going to get you anywhere, right? Now there's general guidelines, but this whole time spent, times material costs, times square inch, just all of that is nonsense. And I had this interview. She's an Arts Reference customer too. Her name's Betty. She's, you're not going to like this, but I use the formula. And I was just laughing in my head because she's got a huge social following and a ton of demand. She can use whatever formula she wants. It's irrelevant because you have the demand. In your case, you are leaving so much money on the table with some of your marketing that we need to tune up. It's mind boggling to me. Right. But it's awesome. It's awesome in the sense that you nailed this emotional connection so hard that it paves over any of those deficiencies. Right. But I see, I see what you have going on these socials and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I've got to, I've got to, I've got to, we got to start hacking at this immediately. You have 36, 000 on here. What did you say you have on your Facebook page?

Dan Sundahl: Yeah, I put 114, 000 on my. Facebook page.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. We need to tune up the story highlights. We need to talk about the post makeup. We got to get you making a little bit more reels. So Patrick, I don't have time for that stuff. Like I don't have time like for doing social media marketing. That's almost a full time job in itself. For sure. Like I said, I want to spend time making artwork. So you're right. I probably do need some, but instead of doing it where I am right now, I wish I would have done it earlier on when I had more time. Yeah. If I could go back in time, I really would have. Stepped into that stuff and set the baselines for those earlier than I did. But yeah, the truth is I don't market my work. I don't advertise apart from just sharing it on social media. I don't advertise it. I don't, it's just all passive. People see it and they ask me, how can I buy this? I'm like, Oh, go, go here. Yeah. So yeah, you're right. But that's okay. That's why I'm the marketing guy. It's my job to poke fun at these nutscouts. That's what I do.

Dan Sundahl:Yeah. What do you, so this whole journey one has been about healing yourself through the whole process. And I imagine you you've gotten yourself into a good spot with that now. Oh yeah. Yeah, where you processed it. You put those things to rest. You feel like I'm helping others now, which is great. Yeah So helping others, what are your aspirations for the business? How big do you want to take this thing for me? The I don't really have a money figure It's I want to be I want to make enough money so that I can do the things that I want to do And the things that I want to do is I want to create artwork. I want to travel. I want to share my experiences with people. So it's not, I don't know. I don't know if that's maybe a common thing for artists to say or not, but I'm not a business guy. I'm not. What are my, when I, my accountant hates me, I just send them a whole whack of numbers and spreadsheets. And he's like, Oh, what does this mean? I'm like, I don't know. You figure it out. Yeah. Vlantis helped me. Yeah. Vlantis helped me with that stuff, my assistant. But yeah, I think for me, if I can, and I'm there already. Yeah. Where I do make enough money off my Danson brand to really live the life that I dream of. which is wonderful, but I would love to have more bigger, better experiences too, which is going to cost more money. Always. Do you, going back to school and becoming a psychologist, do you feel like there's a business centered around art and therapy and how you might combine that and how you might teach those experiences? Is that a direction you're going to go with that?

Patrick Shanahan:No, but first let me correct you. I'm not going before all the psychologists. I'm not, it's a counseling therapist, which is a totally different discipline than psychology, but yeah, there is actually a specialization actually in psychologists with art therapy where, and like the neurology and how the brain works with artists. It really combines well with trauma therapy by using the creative part of your brain. So there's a whole discipline of art therapy for that. I know people ask me that all the time, but I'm not really interested in. Doing that kind of because the artwork is the artwork that I do is so personal. It's mine. Like it's, that's my thing, but I'm happy to help people use the creative part of their brain, whatever that is. If you want to learn how to play the kazoo by kazoo and take kazoo lessons on YouTube, then that is going to be therapeutic for you or whatever the creative, if you want to paint people like, Oh, people tell me all the time, I wish I could paint and draw, but I'm horrible at it. I'm like, That's not the point. The point is if you can create something, even if it's like, I knew this guy who did Stickman t-shirts, made millions of dollars on it, and it's just Stickman, and it just turned into this huge thing, but it's the creative process that he did. So it's more about the, what it's doing for you versus what you're doing for other people, I think, as far as the therapy. Goes, I play guitar too, but I'm not very good at it. So people don't ask me to be interviewed on their shows because I'm such a great guitar player, travel the world and play them a good twinkle, twinkle, little star in front of them. But it's still really therapeutic for me to play guitar. So it's being creative and being an artist is wonderful. And I think everyone has a creative line in them.

Patrick Shanahan: Oh, a hundred percent. And whatever the various disciplines are. So just out of curiosity, what was the impotence to go back to school?

Dan Sundahl: I had to, so I was medically retired from my psychologist said, yeah, Daniel, you're down on the ambulance after 20 years, you can't do it anymore. I'm like, okay, no, I'm, I didn't really fight it. Cause I'm like, yeah, you're right. I don't want to. See this stuff anymore. Yeah. So then it was okay. What am I gonna do now? I'm lucky because I had my dance on work What am I gonna do now and becoming a counseling therapist really? Falls in line with my dance on brand because I'm really trying to help people by sharing my own experiences as a peer or as a fellow suffer of trauma and mental illness But now I can also be their peer and then also be a mental health professional and also helping them do that. So it's followed the whole life. So now what I'm going to do is I'm going to develop workshops, which I've already done. I was, spoke at a conference in Michigan last week, did a workshop, incorporate a lot of my artwork in the workshops that I'm creating for substance abuse and addiction, interpersonal relationship issues, grief, trauma, and it's all incorporating My artwork in the workshops that I do, which is a powerful, really been a powerful tool so far, as far as helping other people on a. Mental health professional side. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it's been a good, it's been a good mix.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. I love that aspect of it. And ultimately our job at art storefronts is to create successful customers. And the one thing that I always, I've always said is that I've never met a revenue source I don't like as long as it's legal, because what a accomplishment, what an experience, what a blessing to be able to use your creative talents to feed your family and live your life. That's a, that's an incredibly impressive thing to do. And so during the course of that journey. I'm always so fascinated on understanding all these different potential revenue sources. And like now, because we're into this creator economy, if you have attention, you can do anything, right? You can do anything. And so you keep building this audience and it's now you have the speaking and you have the, whatever the cycle, the psychological gig ends up becoming, how can we treat that seriously as a revenue source and look at it? Yes. You're trying to help people, but it should be a business too, where my mind goes anyway. So I'm fascinated by that. I love asking the ambush questions at the end. So ambush question, ambush question. Number one. If there's one thing that we could improve at Art Storefronts and only one thing, what would it be for you?

Dan Sundahl: For me personally, I wish there were so many steps to add stuff to my warehouse. I wish it was a little bit user friendly. More user friendly. Again, that's just me.

Patrick Shanahan: We have a service that'll do it all for you now. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's number one. Number two, if you could go back to early days, Dan Santoto just starting, just signed up with us, what piece of advice would you go back and give that kid now?

Dan Sundahl: I would say Don't worry about what other people think when you create artwork just create it for yourself and the followers will come amazing and you're such an anomaly in that that like You didn't try you said you had a little portfolio stuff that you did before you arrived on this, right? Yeah, which no one cared about no one cares about the landscape stuff that I did It looked the same like the idea like it was the same style, but no one connected to it I did stuff with my bulldogs. No one really connected to it because they didn't have their, it looked the same, but there's no connection. Yeah. Yeah. And how long did you, would you say you did the other art before you arrived on this niche? Was it like years or?

Patrick Shanahan: No, it was probably maybe just a year. Oh my gosh. Maybe even less than a year. Yeah. Do you know how angry people are going to be jealous. Because the camera was actually part of my creative thing. So I picked up a camera. When I look back at the original early art pieces that I did, Oh, I just cringe. I think a lot of artists would do that. They're like, Oh God, it's just so. Pointy and so hard to look at, but I never, never alter the artwork that I create. I never change it. People are, Oh, can you put my face in there? I'm like, no, our work is done. It's finished. If you want me to create a new one, I do a lot of commission work as well, which is great. So a lot of people ask me to create our work specifically for them based on their own experiences. And I do a lot of that work, which is wonderful, but I don't alter the existing images that I have.

Patrick Shanahan: What do you charge for your commissions? Just out of curiosity.

Dan Sundahl: It really depends on what the image is, what they want, how much work there is, if I need to hire models to do it. So anywhere, and what they want to use it for. A lot of people use the artwork for covers of their books and stuff. So anywhere from, let's see, 500 to 6, 000.

Patrick Shanahan: Got it. Got it. It depends what they're using it for. Have you done any significant price increases recently, just out of curiosity?

Dan Sundahl:Yes. And how did it take? Just didn't even notice the difference. No, it just kept coming.

Patrick Shanahan: Wow. Yeah, it just kept coming. And I do that, because my motto, this is my motto, I want to work less and make more. That's what my motto is. So if I'm working lots and lots and lots and lots, this is most, I think, for public speaking and traveling and, The exhibit work that I do is I need to find out what the limits are. So I will raise the prices. I'd rather go to one event and make twice the money I'm making now, instead of going to two events. It's not a hundred percent sure. Cause I'd love going and meeting people as well. Yeah, but the travel is hard and the travel is time consuming, but people have different concepts of how, what money actually means. Oh, 500. Oh my God. That's so much money. When I first started speaking, I charged 500. To do a presentation. And I thought that was insane. Oh my God, that is insane. People are going to pay me 500 bucks to speak for an hour. I couldn't believe it. And no, I don't want to sound like an asshole, but that's a small fraction of what I charge now. And people are still paying for it. And it's because of the artwork is because of the artwork that I create. Yeah. That they want to. In the deep emotions of it. One, I think you could probably raise your prices again, and I think you should keep raising your prices until something feels falls off a cliff. I think that's just a general good, good principle and it's again, anything's possible with demand, right? But you, on the low end, you have your photo books and then sub a hundred dollars, right? And non wall art. Very important. I preach that all the time. Then you've got your prints that are the sub thousand dollar range. And then what are your small to big originals go? Because it's all digital, I don't really have. Originals. However, every once in a while, cause if you, I can't really see, but I'm, I have my home gallery, so I probably have 30 or 40 pieces hanging up here and I always want to switch them out. So I'll have actually have an art party here. I'll put price tags on the stuff that's been hanging in my gallery for a long time. Cause I want to move them out. So I get it catered. People come over, they, they meet me and they buy stuff literally off the walls of my home gallery, which gives me. Space to put new stuff up. So those would be considered original. And then I hand signed them. And those are pieces that have been hanging in my Like the ones that are behind me. There's only a couple there, but so I do that every once in a while. And those are pretty good. I do pretty well with that, but there's not really, cause I'm a digital artist. That's yeah. There's no originals. It's just, yeah. I consider the first printing that I do of that art piece, the original. So I actually have in my, you can't see this right here, is the very first image that I did in the very first printing of it. I'll never sell that. I'll never let that go. 'cause that is my very first original art piece that I ever did. Wow. And I'll never get, I'll never, sadly, I had, it's a two piece of that and I sold the other one and I wish I didn't. Mm-Hmm. . But I'll never let that one go.

Patrick Shanahan: Amazing. Gotta, you gotta, you gotta keep that one close to the chest. Yeah. You know, you, you, you said something, um, earlier, which is you look at the earliest of your work and you cringe a little bit, right? Yeah. And, and then all artists do that. Reid Hoffman's the guy that started LinkedIn and he's got this line that said if you're not embarrassed by your first version You've launched too late. Cause you got to just get started. It's never going to be perfect. Right. Just do it. Just let, and then even I think for websites too, people like, oh yeah, I have a website and people think, well, as soon as you put it out there, tons of people are going to come. No, even if you have a website and it's out there, you're still going to get zero traffic until you start pushing people toward it. Yep. Um, so I'm like, yeah, and I've launched, I have five or six different websites based on, I also have a foundation of a charity that we run. So we have, we have lots of different websites and they've been a lot of tweaking. Yeah, I need to actually update my art storefronts website by downside gallery. com. Yeah, I need to update that a little bit I haven't spent a lot of time on there lately, but yeah update that how that looks Yeah, I noticed and you guys can follow him on Instagram and see how he does things He's got he's got his eggs in a few different baskets to get there to get things done, which is just awesome I want to be sensitive to your time really enjoyed that Learned a ton. Love your niche. Think you're leaving a ton on the table in terms of marketing. You already know that. I, I do think you get to your level, you get to your level and it's, it's likely worth hiring someone. Yeah, I know. I'm at that point where I need a marketing manager or a business manager, but I'm still strong to my guns of if I can hire somebody to do that work, then I don't need to do that work. Because I need to create artwork in order to grow the business and no one else can create the artwork that I create and any other artists can't create the artwork that you create. So I don't want to spend time. I don't want to take time away from growing my business, which is creating artwork by spending an hour a day, even on my website, tweaking stuff. And I want to do that. It's amazing to hear you say that because this notion of delegation is so hard. It's so hard for artists in particular. They feel like they have to do all of that. I would go as far to say like, why we exist as a brand at Art Storefronts is this notion of, I use the restaurant analogy, and I say, what size is your restaurant? What size is your restaurant, Dan? And the idea is that you already, you somehow just naturally have this and whatever, some people are born with it, but you're the chef. What you said multiple times on this call is I'm the chef and you know what I want to do? I want to be in the back making the most insane dishes anyone's ever had and focusing all my time and energy on that right there, but problem. Most artists also have to be the receptionist and the major D and the waiter and the bartender and the Somalia and the bus boy and the dishwasher. And. Something's got to give them that equation. You have to be able to take those other things off of your plate. If you're ever going to have the time to focus on the one thing that can actually move the needle. So you can argue a website takes care of some of that. Print on demand takes care of some of that. Automated marketing takes care of some of that. But that's a journey. That's the march. What is the thing only you can do? And it's creating that artwork. And I came to that realization pretty early. And I still live by it, but I think I'm now at that point and hiring my assistant, Lana, she's been fantastic, but now I think I'm at the point where I've plateaued and in order for me to grow again, I need to add more. And I have a publisher, I have other people that subcontract a lot of the stuff that I do, but I want to, it's time for me to level up. So I need to hire some more people, which is scary because it costs money, but you got to spend money to make money. You do. You're do you do and let me tell you there's a lot of people that are watching this that wish they had the one part Nailed that you already have nailed Right, which is this crazy niche that no one can explain that's as heavy as it is that invokes this kind of emotion like You've got the difficult part sorted. Yeah Now we need to focus on the blocking and tackling on instagram on facebook more live streaming You and i'll talk about that later, but i've got a bunch of tune up ideas and everything else So I think as you get closer to making that higher, I could certainly help you on a plan Very cool dance on photo art guys. Follow him Amazing work, amazing inspiration. Someone that's utterly, totally, and completely nailed a niche. And you look at this work and there is so much emotion. There's so much emotion there, but huge. Thanks. Thanks for your time. I look forward to continue to seeing the business grow. And yeah, we'll talk offline about, about all the rest.

Dan Sundahl: Awesome. Sounds great. Thanks Patrick.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. Thanks. Oh yeah. So his site, you guys should just follow him on Instagram and he's got a link to you that is his various different sites and his foundation website. Everything's in there. Probably the easiest way to do it. So just follow him on danesynth. art and glad you guys liked it. More customer interviews to come.