Meet Megh. An overnight success takes 10 years

In this episode of the Art Marketing Podcast titled 'An Overnight Success Takes 10 Years,' host Patrick engages in an in-depth conversation with artist Megh Knappenberger. Megh shares her unique journey as an artist who excels both in her craft and in marketing—a rare combination in the art world. They discuss Megh's milestones from her early days, including a transformational moment at a zero-sales art booth to achieving near-million-dollar revenue. Megh elaborates on her key strategies such as 'starting with demand and working backwards' and 'newsjacking,' including significant instances like capitalizing on Kansas University's national championship win and her successful licensed artworks. The discussion extends to her marketing techniques, balancing personal and professional life on social media, and advice for emerging artists. Megh teases an exciting upcoming project and details the auction of her art piece for a charity fundraiser in Kansas City.

Podcast Transcribe

Patrick Shanahan: Forget it. There we go. All right, well, welcome to today's edition of the Art Marketing Podcast, an episode which I'm titling "An Overnight Success Takes 10 Years." I have none other than artist Megh Natenberger with me. Megh, how are you doing?

Megh Knappenberger: Hey, I'm good. How are you doing?

Patrick Shanahan: It gives me great pleasure to introduce you, Megh, because not only are you a talented artist, a long-time customer, a dear friend at this point, but also a two-time podcast guest. I had to go back and look; I know you know that. That was February—

Megh Knappenberger: I feel pretty special.

Patrick Shanahan: February 20th, 2018.

Megh Knappenberger: Wow, yeah.

Patrick Shanahan: Where in the world did that time go? All right, I want to throw some intro stuff in and then start teeing you up. I would say, to macro, why do you want to listen to this podcast, and why would you want to get to know Megh? Where would I start on that? Megh is sort of a unicorn. It is a rare and mythological animal which, for artists, there's like a venture capital scene unicorn definition. For artists, it translates into an artist that is both talented in their craft and talented as a marketer. That is an extremely rare thing in the art and photography circles. Week in, week out, I run these webinars where I'm constantly talking to artists and photographers, and whether Megh knows it or not, I reference her story oftentimes not by name. When I get these questions like, "How many people do I need on my email list or Instagram followers or Facebook fans to make X dollars per year?" Artists love asking that question. "What is the magical formula? If I just know what the magical formula is and I have it, then I will have this great business." Earlier in my career, I tried like hell to get to the bottom of that, looking at all of our customers, all the data. What is the six-figure-a-year artist formula? You have X website traffic times Y emails plus Z Instagram fans running so many sales per month equals magical six-figure-a-year business. But what I've come to learn over the years is that there is no damn magical formula. There never has been. There never will be. There's no special number. There's no hack. There's no trick. There's no map. Every artist is different. Each takes a different path. What works for one may not work for the other. I think what matters more than any other formula or anything else is regular, consistent work on your marketing spread out over the course of years. Moreover, and especially in Megh's case, which we're going to get into, is constant iteration on your niche in subject material. 

But as an artist—and I'm sorry I'm going to do this to you, Megh—but as an artist out there looking to grow your business, and again, I apologize because what do all artists do? They just follow other artists and then you have an Instagram following of other artists. Artists, you would do well to follow Megh on Instagram. And by the way, this is an ambush question. Feel free, if you don't want to answer it, are you already over the one million dollar mark in sales and net sales or gross sales?

Megh Knappenberger: You know, I thought of that as I was pulling some numbers right before we talked, and I would need a minute to do that. I'm getting close.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, you're getting really, really close. I would say, if you're not there just like knowing you for as long as I have and watching the arc of your career as I've gotten to, if you're not there yet, you're very, very soon. You are on the path to a million dollars a year in revenue, and that's a really, really exciting thing. I thought ahead of time, the themes that I want to tease out of this episode are, one, just how long it takes to become a successful artist; two, the concept of pivoting; three, the concept of newsjacking; four, starting with demand and working backwards; understanding that the artist is part of the brand. It can't be just the work. The customers want to know who you are, what makes you tick, what you're interested in, what you're all about. So I figured we would just sort of start the conversation and then have at it and see what shakes out. I don't want to necessarily spend too much time doing the ancient history, Megh, but I love sort of like a career arc and like just that you've had already and maybe teasing out some of the lessons along the way. I wanted to start because I love this story, and the whole genesis for this episode was Megh has a huge win recently, which is an amazing story. We're going to get to the amazing story, but you know, do you know what I thought about where I wanted to start? What I love is your story of you in your art booth on your feet all day in the sun, $300 in profit, and you're like, "WTF, what am I doing with my life? What's going on?" Maybe start there.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, I mean, $300 is a way overestimate for that particular story. Yeah, I was at a booth and I did zero dollars in sales that day, and then someone walked up and vomited right in front of my booth, like literally all of the ground in front of all of my beautiful work was just a pile of orange vomit. And that's when I was like, "I'm done. I am done both here and also with these small dumb shows where people are just walking around kicking the tires." When I have little kids, doing weekend shows for me just doesn't make sense. It's a huge issue. So yeah, that was a real moment for me. Like, "I am out of here. Goodbye."

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, "I'm done. I'm done with this. What am I doing? I'm never going to be an artist." Sorry, my kid came and I have to hand him a phone.

Megh Knappenberger: Oh, that's okay. 

Patrick Shanahan: And it was out of that scenario that... Megh's from Kansas City. She went to KU. Huge KU fan, long-time KU fan, and it was out of that scenario that you went and figured out, "Okay, I'm going to do the mascots," and did your licensing deal and got that whole thing over the line.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, pretty much. That was all happening kind of simultaneously at that point. So I was just doing the numbers on, "Okay, here's how many hours it took me to prep for the show, and here's what I put into it, and inventory that I had to produce, and then all the time and schlepping stuff across a field." When I did the numbers, especially when I made zero dollars and had to pay for the booth, it was like, "This in no universe does this ever make sense for me unless I'm pulling down like $30 grand at each show." And like some shows, I'm sure you can, but for me, it was just like, "This is not the way I'm going to do this. Goodbye."

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, and if you go back and you listen to a way earlier episode with Megh, she goes into depth and talks about her story about how she created these original works that were the mascots for KU, got an official licensing deal, and then got thrust onto the path of success, became a name, got written up in the news, and really kick-started her career off. So you can go back. We don't need to retell that story. But one thing I wanted to touch on since that is like, correct me if I'm wrong, but the work that you had in the booth originally, right, when you were doing that show, subsequent to you generating all the demand that you did with the Jayhawks, started selling, didn't it?

Megh Knappenberger: Oh yeah, yeah. And all that work is awesome.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, and you know, I have her site pulled up here. Get my fat head out of the way. Some of the sunflower type of stuff and the bison type of stuff that you had in that booth where you were on your feet for eight hours and only making $300, subsequently after you were able to generate all that demand and all that attention, it started moving. And I think that's a really, really interesting concept to even think about because it wasn't that the work wasn't good back then. It was you just hadn't built up enough of an audience, enough of a brand for it to sell.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, that's totally right. I mean, especially like even now, some of that work has been on my site since the very beginning, and it's old to me, but to a new person, it's new to a new customer. So that's like such an important—I feel like that's a big important marketing lesson too, is that once you start to feel just like when I feel so sick of hearing myself talk about something, it's like that's at the point when maybe people have maybe heard it, but probably not. So it's like getting past the point of like, "I'm sick of that," or "Everyone else must be sick of it," is so, so wrong for artists. And with my work especially, it's that way. I haven't made as much new work in the past few years as I did right at the beginning. So all of that beginning work has carried me over this pocket of time when I had a kid and then a pandemic hit. I didn't make a lot of new work during that time, but it didn't matter. I was able to market the stuff I already had.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, which is amazing. And your career is interesting too in the sense

 that you're an artist that, at a macro, your niche is Kansas City gal, Kansas City themes, Midwest heartland. People from Southern California, maybe they're buying your work, but you own a niche, I would say. Do you feel like that's how people refer to you, as the Kansas City artist or Kansas City gal?

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, it's funny. Especially right now, I feel like I've hit this moment of peak Kansas City, especially with this, you know, everything sort of tied in. It was this perfect storm right now, especially this summer with KU winning a national championship and people knowing me as the KU artist. But then also there's this public arts project here called the Parade of Hearts, and it's like 150 of those big—it's kind of like the cow thing—and it's a big fundraiser here, and it is a huge thing in Kansas City right now. And they called and asked me to do the final heart to celebrate the national championship. And this has turned into this wonderful PR, great thing for me that was totally unexpected. And that all came—and I think that's part of how you developed the title for today, because we were talking about this. That opportunity came, and it seemed, you know, it's kind of like right place, right time, but also that reputation had been building over the course of the past eight, ten years that I've been in Kansas City. Things like that happen with good relationships and good reputations in a city like this where it's not necessarily a small city, but everybody knows one another.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, it is Midwestern. And also, just considering that right now and how to take what I've built here and then build another one of those maybe somewhere else or something else over the internet. So I am kind of at a pivot moment where I realize I love being the Midwestern and the Kansas City and the KU artist, but also how do I scale my business? And there's a ceiling that I could and will hit with Kansas City and the Midwest. So I'm interested in going bigger than that. And yeah, it's an interesting moment to be at, to be considering how to maintain what got me here but also build on it in a different way.

Megh Knappenberger: Oh, that's such an interesting conundrum right there. I mean, I could just as easily take a contrarian path and argue against you on that and say you could just keep raising your prices and just be known as the Kansas City gal and crush that because the niche is big enough to sustain a massive, massive business. But independent of that, I think one of the things that I've enjoyed, you know, sort of as your career arc has gone by and the work that I've seen you produce and some of the things that you've worked on is, I don't know whether you do this instinctually, whether it's just baked into your DNA, or if you've sort of figured out intentionally to do this. And the concept is starting with demand and working backwards. So what most artists, most photographers out there do is they say, "This is what I want to produce because I love it, because this is what creatively sustains me. It's what interests me. This is what I'm going to create." And then they create it, and then they go take that work to the market, and the sales don't map to their expectations. And then they either blame themselves, "I suck, I'm not good enough," or they blame other conditions, "People aren't buying art right now," or "We're in a recession," or "The stock market just crashed," whatever it is, and they quit. And what you were in that point of your career earlier in the booth for $300 and then with the Jayhawks, whether you did it instinctively or not, I'm very curious, my read of it is you're like, "Okay, there is just not the demand for what I've created right now. Instead of just going and creating something else, I'm going to go find some die-hard crazy lunatic demand, work backwards, and then create something for them." Do you feel like the first time you did that intentionally, or do you feel like you got there serendipitously, or what?

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, I would say it's instinctually, and if not instinctually, certainly on purpose. And it's a weird thing to talk about because I have been also very intentional to choose things that I care very much about. So I think there's a right way and a wrong way to do this and to talk about it as if I just went into the Jayhawks as a money grab is wrong. But also, I did that very intentionally, looking at my career and saying very top level, like, "What are some things I can make once and sell a million times, be the engine that powers the runway to create other things, which then powers..." You know, it's all this sort of like the business kind of builds on itself over time. And I've tried to look forward to like, "What do I actually want from this? What do I need from this?" And the reality is that having a product line that helps to just kind of like power the business gives me the freedom to then think about, "Well, what else do I want to do?" And I'm not hustling so hard to sell something that only makes sense to me. Then that's not to say that I don't make that work. I definitely do. And there's a ton of work I make just for me, just for my own mental health that doesn't make it always into my social media or onto my shop. But I have to bring in an income in order to have the time and space and materials to do that work. So I'm just naturally, my personality is that I'm very practical. I really think about, "What are the numbers for this? What's the business goal of this thing?" Part of it is just growing up in an entrepreneurial family. Part of it is having a background in marketing, design, and working more traditional jobs before this. And I used to have to track my time by 15-minute increments when I was a graphic designer. Every 15 minutes of mine was billed out at a specific rate, and I watched how that changed as I changed careers, and that thinking has never really left me. So it's like, "What am I spending my time on, and what can run automatically without me?" So that time gets to get put into exactly what I want to do, like whatever that is on a certain day.

Patrick Shanahan: Wow, wow. It's interesting to hear you say that, especially the 15-minute billing increments, which is like what lawyers have to do, right, because they're constantly just billing for 15 minutes. The start with demand and work backwards is just so damn impressive and so damn powerful and such an incredible concept. And then I think you've also done a great job learning that lesson, whether it was instinctually and you got better at it over time after the Jayhawks hit. But there's that portion of it, and then a lot of what you've done recently is the newsjacking portion of it. And the two of them sort of build on each other, don't they?

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, they do.

Patrick Shanahan: Do you want to define newsjacking? I'm actually curious to hear you define newsjacking.

Megh Knappenberger: Sure. I would say newsjacking is, in general, just sort of following what's going on in the world and then watching a tidal wave build and capitalizing on a moment in time when everybody's going to be talking about something and making a thing about that thing and kind of riding the wave of like the hashtag wave, the share wave, the virality wave. There's a lot of different ways to do it. So, I mean, and again, I think newsjacking can be like a hustle, or it can be something that really contributes to my personal brand. And so I have used it as a way to contribute to my brand. And it's funny because it started during the pandemic, and I was in this little box studio just to get out of my house. But it was so small that I couldn't do my normal painting. But I was just like, "I got to be somewhere, and I got to be creative, and I got to figure out a way to make some work to just save myself from this crazy time." And so I started doing these little portraits, like little watercolor portraits, like in the amount of space that is between my shoulders, because that's all I had. And that led to, you know, and I would just kind of go in without a plan because it was a planless time. So I think the first one I did was when RBG passed, and that was a very sudden thing. I don't think that was one that a tidal wave could be ridden up to. And she was someone who, again, this is somebody that I care deeply about. This is a person I admire. This is something that follows kind of along with my brand. And so I painted her portrait as a way of just like celebrating her life, mourning her legacy. And I created a donation component of the limited edition print that I give back a portion of that to the ACLU, which is near and dear to her heart. So there's also this kind of, especially, and this is not everybody does this, but for me, celebrating the life of somebody I admired feels too grabby if I'm not also giving back to their legacy. So it's a great part of it to talk about, like, I'm celebrating this person, and also I'm giving money back. So I'm getting to write checks to the ACLU and to a few other things every year that is great. I love doing that.

Patrick Shanahan: I love that. I love the way you categorize it because one of the things that I'll often get, and it most recently happened with Ukraine, and then before that, it was heavy on the whole BLM scenario, right? And everyone

 was asking me, like, "Hey, I want to do this Ukraine fundraiser art. What do you think about this fundraiser? I do Ukraine fundraiser art." Or, "Hey, I'm really interested in this BLM thing, and I want to do the BLM thing." And I'm like, you know, I'm having a conversation with them, and I was like, "Do you really bleed BLM? Do you really bleed Ukraine?" Right? Like, regardless if it's how you feel about the movement or whatever it is or whether it's a nice gesture, is that really you? Is that really what you love? And so I agree with you that having the authenticity in the newsjacking and having the authenticity in like, "This is you. You love that woman. You love what she stood for. You loved what she achieved, the glass ceiling, all the rest of it." So that is totally worthwhile. And I think, you know, people can smell it when it's not.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, I was just going to say that. Newsjacking is like anything. It's all tethered from my brand. You know, it's not like this thing that's out there in the world that becomes its own little freestanding project. Like, it all ties to me, and it has to make sense. And there's enough news to jack all day, every day for the rest of eternity, no matter what you're into. So it's like whatever news and things that you like to follow, you know, there are things from which to jack there.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, for certain. For certain. But, you know, even there's a formula there, and it really is the combination of both. Like when we say, "Start with demand and work backwards." Megh did the Jayhawks. Then Megh loved Ruth Bader Ginsburg and did Ruth. A little while later, she did, and I'll show that in a second, the Anthony Bourdain. And you know that these people have die-hard fans, that these people love them. So you're starting with demand. You know when you create a product that is really compelling, there's going to be a built-in audience that's massive, right? There's that already. So you're starting with demand and working backwards. And then the time in which you created the works, right when RBG died, right when Anthony Bourdain died, and the whole world was talking about it, which is just an amazing, amazing concept. And I wonder, the success you've had, you know, selling those and the attention that it's brought you, and I want to pull up the Anthony Bourdain one too. I think the Anthony Bourdain one that you did is my favorite works. I also just love that.

Megh Knappenberger: And that was actually, I know the Bourdain one was actually on the one year, like leading up to the one-year anniversary of his death. So the reason I painted it, for one, this was like another tether to me thing. I had always wanted to paint Tony Bourdain, especially after there was an episode where an artist did his portrait. And I was like, "God, I want that to be me." So it's like a thing that was living in my brain. And then I saw a trailer for the movie that they made about him. And when that movie came out right around the anniversary of his death, and it was all sort of like, there was a big thing kind of brewing around the one-year anniversary of his death, as well as the announcement of the scholarship in his name. And so it just felt like the timing all worked. And it was like, so I wanted to have that piece done, and I announced it the day the movie premiered. So that one I did, I was able to ride and sort of see the wave growing and pick a date that wasn't that far in the future, but it gave me a little time to like develop a little bit of marketing and to make a time-lapse video of all this stuff. So, yeah, sometimes there are things that happen and you make a thing right away and you just put it out there and hope for the best. And sometimes there are things you can watch building, and I think both are great.

Patrick Shanahan: Do you have plans to do this again in the future based on the success you've had thus far?

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, you know, and I'm trying now. I've done it a little bit willy-nilly on just like things. And it's funny, I was just having a conversation about this little Ted Lasso painting I did over the holidays last year. And so what I'm trying to do more in the future and right now is just like put some parameters around it a little bit tighter. You know, the things that I've done so far have fallen roughly into a portraits category, but aside from that, they're kind of their own little standalones. Like I did a Dave Grohl painting after I read, you know, he was in the news a bunch. And like, so I've done some like musical. And so right now what I'm trying to do is like, okay, I'm seeing how these things are working on their own, but how do I do it where like I have a little family of stuff, and then when I do one, it brings attention to the rest of the family. So it's like its own little, you know, growing, mutating organism together. So I don't know yet. I'm kind of in the thinking mode.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. Well, I want to get to your recent big hit, but before we do, I think, you know, as I'm listening to you talk, right, and you know, I'm the marketing guy, right? To the hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Megh Knappenberger: Yep, no worries.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. But I'm actually enjoying the fact that like, this is kind of nice. Like we're not talking about the hardcore marketing stuff. We're talking about the other. So I think one of the other things that you do really well, because I want this to be beneficial for other artists, is balance Megh's art and who Megh is as a person, especially as it pertains to social media. I think you do a very good job of breaking up, you know, not just the work all the time, but you, the kids, the family, what you're doing, how you're running around. I'd love to think about how you approach that sort of what your thought process is on how Instagram's going. And again, everyone, what's the magical alchemy? You guys have heard the financial figures. Megh has 12,000 followers on Instagram. It's not about the number of followers. It's about the connection. And I think you're very good at it, at building a very strong connection. You're constantly consistent on it. You know, you're always posting, which is really, really important, updating. And you're doing that whilst being a mother, which is not easy, which is not easy. So I would love to get your practical advice, thoughts, alchemy, just however you approach it and keep it up consistently too, which is crazy.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah. I mean, I would say like it's constantly changing and constantly I'm learning and trying things and then pivoting around and just seeing what works. And it took me a little while too. I mean, like if you went back through my back catalog from a few years ago, it took me a little while to like find the boundaries of telling stories, find my tone for like, you know, the voice. I am my brand, but also my brand kind of has its own little voice and its own little world that is not all of me. And I think everyone who is on social media, every human being in the world right now, is having to figure this out. Like how much of yourself do you give to the world on your social media, which is a very public forever platform. And it took me a little while to find that. So I would say like, if you're just starting out or if you're kind of in that weird, like, I don't know, you know, you post something, then you feel meh about it the next day, like it's just like, keep track of that and learn and say like, okay, well that didn't feel quite right. Or when there's something you post and it really feels right, and then it resonates with people, like keep track of that and post more of that and just kind of like move towards the things like move towards the light. And over time, it gets a little easier to just like, it's like, it's kind of like learning a language, but it's like speaking my own language and remembering that this is what I share. So when I share my family specifically, it is usually because it pertains to a project in a way that it makes sense. So I'm not like posting cute pictures of my kids just because they're cute. You know, I have a personal account for doing that. And you know, for what, for my reasons and for my brand, like I don't want a mom signal too hard. So, you know, I am an entrepreneur, I'm not a stay-at-home mom. And there are things and you can follow other people and kind of watch how people do it. But I've just been very cautious and conscious of how I, like what the boundaries that I draw around it and like what brand, what do I want somebody to feel as they're reading my stuff? So I would say like that's, you know, keep trying and figuring it out until it feels good. Because I think we see in the art storefronts group, there's a lot of like friction and like annoyance with having to like constantly post on social media and constantly market. And you know, it's like this beast that we have to feed, but it only really is that when you're trying to do it in a way that everybody else does it and you're trying

 to be somebody else. And like until you figure out like, this is what feels good to me, this is what I enjoy doing. Like I really like making reels. It's like making little music videos. I think it's fun. And some people hate it. Like, great. Like it's the same with email. Like there are best practices around doing things and there are things the way I like to do them. And if it makes me consistent, that's the stuff that I really try to lean into. Because otherwise, I'm just not going to do it. So I, you know, I think it's about like learning, but learning what works for you and what people resonate with.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. Well, you're doing a great job at it. I think, you know, if you want to follow an account that I think has a really nice balance between it's not just 2D image of the art after 2D image after 2D image, it's Megh holding the art, it's her introducing some of her personal life and some of the things that she does. And it's very well, well on brand and stitched up. So thanks for that. It's interesting to hear you say it that way. Let's get to the hit. How do you want to tell this story? What's exciting?

Megh Knappenberger: Well, yeah, it's so exciting. Well, KU is my alma mater, and they have a really good basketball team. And so they went to the national championship this year and won. And that is not something that happens every year. For somebody who has a license, which I have had for six years with the school, it's a huge, huge boon. It's like when your city wins the Super Bowl, everybody benefits. It's like this little microcosm of that where when your team wins a national championship, everyone like lives in the afterglow of that for years and years and years. So the last time this happened was 14 years ago. So I did not plan that it was going to happen and I did not prepare anything in advance of it happening. And so they won. And then shortly thereafter, I was like, "Well, I want to make something to capitalize on this." So the first thing I did was apply for the licensing and get that process going. So most people create like, you know, when a team gets up there after they win, they have the hat on that already says national champions. Most smart people who make product that is licensed have something ready to go and some product already produced in advance. So people are planning for this months in advance. I did not. And maybe I would in the future just a little bit. I would at least apply for the license. So I could get into like the super nitty gritty of that. I won't. But there's a process. Got that, made something really fast and just had to like make a fast decision. Pretty much I sat down for 10 minutes and sketched and was like, "What am I going to do? Okay, I'm going to do it. What canvas do I have in the studio that is that size?" Sketched it out and I just started. And I didn't think too hard about what it was. I just went ahead and made the like an artistic rendition of the national, like the NCAA championship logo, which is what gets put on like all the t-shirts and stuff. And so yeah, made it, put it out there really quick, teased, did a bunch on social media. I had people messaging me saying they were interested in the original before I ever even showed the original. So that was cool and exciting. And so once the licensing came through, I had it all ready to go and I spun it up. And so I did, I sold kind of similar to what I've done in the past where I have three tiers. There's the original, there's limited editions, and then there's the open edition. So, you know, high, medium, low. And the limited edition, I did an edition of 100 and they sold out in less than two weeks, which is crazy. The last time I did a limited edition, anytime I've done one, it has not gone that fast. So I was very surprised.

Patrick Shanahan: What was the price point? Open edition prints, open edition print started, limited edition, and then original, just because I'm curious.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah. So opens started at $53 for like an eight by eight. And then the limited was a 12 by 12 that was $250 that was hand-signed and numbered. And then the original went for $15,000.

Patrick Shanahan: And you know, I'm angry about that.

Megh Knappenberger: I know. Well, it wasn't, I mean, that was a great learning experience for me because I had people messaging me even before I really showed out an email and was like, "Hey, fans, I'm going to make something, stay tuned." And then I sent out kind of, "I'm just waiting on the licensing." And I had probably like 15 or 20 people reach out. And of those, I didn't know everyone, but some of the people I knew were pretty qualified, you know, knew that I sell work at a high price point. And because of that, I did something different than I normally do. And I waited and said, "I'm going to auction it because I have so much interest. I don't want to just set a price and let the first person come and get it. I wanted to give everyone an opportunity to bid on it." In my mind, I thought that would sort of build excitement and that there would be a lot of stuff, you know, a lot of interest in it. What happened was I should have taken bids right when at the moment someone emailed me and said they were interested. I should have taken a bid. Instead, I was like, "Hold on, I'm working on an auction. Wait, wait, watch your email." And I did it over a weekend and like not everyone was in town and the auction was kind of a flop. So that's, I mean, a flop is all relative, I think. But in my mind and the way that the excitement that had built, it had kind of petered by the time that happened. And what I had hoped to happen had already passed. So that's like a great learning with, you know, we're talking about like newsjacking and working backwards from demand. And that is, you know, something that I've learned. Like the original needed to go up and it just needed to go at a big price on my website right away and somebody would have bought it.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah.

Megh Knappenberger: I mean, I'm not mad about it. Like it's great. But in the future, trying to be the person who like allows everyone to have an opportunity, you know, it's like the Midwestern in me. It's like, "Well, everyone should have a chance to bid on this."

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah.

Megh Knappenberger: It's like, "Nah, I'm not going to do that again."

Patrick Shanahan: Call me next. The price would have been $50 grand, $75 grand on that, period.

Megh Knappenberger: I know. Well, you know what though? Like it all has, it turned into the heart that's behind your head right now. And while I will not see the price of this, that heart is getting auctioned next Friday. And the potential for that heart to auction at a very, very high price is there and it's probably going to happen. So in a way, that price tag associated with my name is going to happen just kind of in a different way.

Patrick Shanahan: Did you donate that thing behind me?

Megh Knappenberger: So I was paid a stipend. There are 155 of them around town. Everybody got paid the same $2,000 stipend. And then I had the benefit of getting a crap ton of press from it. So, you know, that stuff is not, you can't necessarily put a price tag on that. Like those are just good brand building things, especially here. So I take it all.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. Yeah. In an amazing scenario. And also in terms of pricing, like, you know, you have a very good handle on gotta have the opens, gotta have the limiteds, gotta have the, gotta have the original. And I think, you know, in the future, I think you probably could even spread the price point even, even a little bit further, right? Like two different sets. I mean, I know it gets a little sticky with the licensing and such, but so nice to have those three options, you know, high, medium, low, everybody's covered.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah. And I think, you know, especially with, with this, like just setting it up in a different way than my other stuff, because the licensing rate is much higher for national champion stuff. And so just like doing the math on it, like, I think a lot of people would look at it and be like, whoa, like there's no way you can make money on this. And it's like, actually, you just have to, you know, do the, do the math and, and make it work. So, um, I think this is, this is a great, there's a slower burn on national championship stuff than there is on like the death of a celebrity. So, you know, this, I should be able to ride this all the way through Q4 and see some bumps at Q4 before the next season begins.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. And then, and then year in, year out and you're able to sell the, is the terms of the license, you're able to sell the open editions in perpetuity. The limited editions are already all sold out.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah. Yep.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. See, that's a

 really, I mean, I could do another limited edition if I wanted to, that was a different piece of art. And I actually had submitted and received, I got another design approved just in case I didn't have time to make an original painting. So I have something else kind of like approved and ready to rock if I want to put it out to sort of celebrate, like there's a night where they hang the banner, the championship banner, and that's like another moment of news. That's like another like, let's relive the championship. So I could put out something that's like commemorative of that moment. And I might end up doing that in the fall.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. It's so, it's so interesting to contemplate and, you know, it's such a Midwest thing to have like a basement or a man cave or like a game room. And you know, this is just, you, you know, we, we, we talk about conceptually, you know, the themes that we already have starting with demand working backwards and newsjacking, but there's also, you know, start, start with the end destination literally in the sense that like what wall, what wall are you designing a particular piece for? And like one of the things that, you know, we promoted as a business at Art Storefronts is, you know, have a bathroom art sale. Did you do the bathroom art sale, by the way?

Megh Knappenberger: I did not, but I did a basement art sale.

Patrick Shanahan: You did a basement art sale.

Megh Knappenberger: Oh yeah.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. That's right. That's right. So the, the concept of the bathroom art, art sale is the same thing and start with the end and work backwards in, in the sense that like everyone has a bathroom, everyone could, could, could serve to tune up their art in their bathroom, right. And, and do a little refresher. And so it gives you this opportunity to sell smaller pieces because bathrooms are tiny, potentially series because people like putting series in you, you, you designed, you designed for the man cave. This is starting with the man cave and working backwards, just starting with the sports room, the basement and working backwards. And if you're a huge die-hard fan of this team, why the hell would you not want to have that in there? I mean, to commemorate it, that's a big deal.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, definitely. Especially choosing a size, you know, a lot of people hem and haw over the size of a limited edition and like to do multiple sizes and stuff. And over time, just like frankly from just like a tracking, keeping track of stuff and making sure I don't screw it up, I've gone down to just like one size, one version. And then one of the things I do on them, which is especially with this one was really neat, is that I allow people to personalize it. So I write, you know, it gets numbered, but then I'll also write like, we were there at the game, you know, see section five. And then when they have that, you know, it's hand signed and numbered by me, but then it also has this, like there were a lot of like inside jokes and special memories of like, I was like, I don't know what this means, but you know, writing on the, yeah.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah.

Megh Knappenberger: And like for Arch, like add a little box to say, like write in your personalization. And if I'm already there keeping track of like who, what person is this, what number is this, it takes an extra 10 seconds and people really, really like that. And I like doing that. It makes the process really fun for me. So I'm not just like, you know, sign and number, sign and number. I get to like have a little personal moment with each person's piece and then reference it. Like I'll write a little thank you note, be like, hope, you know, hope Betty loves the gift. And I feel like those little, where there are opportunities to do that, it means a lot and people don't forget that.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah. I'm just like thinking through in my mind, like one of, one of the enjoyable things about being in this business for as long as we have now is, you know, you get to have what, what all you read in the books, right. About who sold well and, and in selling techniques and pricing techniques and how to contemplate that and psychological triggers and all the rest of that nonsense. It's not nonsense. It's good stuff. But then, you know, we get customers that have a great deal of success like you. And then we get to think through like, okay, how would I reverse engineer that? How would I make that situation better in the future? And I love the rule of threes between the low, medium and high. I think if I could have advised you ahead of time, I would have said, do a low, medium and high within the limited editions because those sold out so insanely quickly, you know, and you could have played with size in there. You could have played with media type and you could have started the limited editions at like a thousand and then had some $5,000 ones and then had some $25,000 ones. And then that would have stepped you into the original. And I, and I'm, I'm like really cognizant of just, this is embarrassing, but I used to own a furniture store. Okay. Many moons ago, I owned a furniture store.

Megh Knappenberger: I feel like you've told me this before.

Patrick Shanahan: I, I said this on, on a podcast, of course, somebody would maybe hear the story, but I think the analogy worked so insanely well. Like this was like a franchise thing that I bought into. I was young and dumb and they had a very, very intelligent way to sell the product line. And you would advertise in the penny saver, this terrible crappy mattress that you literally, they told you to run it over with the car. It was so bad. Okay. And it like cost you a hundred dollars, but you, you advertise like a pillow top for $49 and you ran it over and you left in the plastic on the ground and the people would walk in. Okay. And you would have like the most expensive gigantic memory foam, that, that pillow top thing on the end. And then the beds would just go all the way down in quality down to the crappy one on the end. Right. But you had this huge range. And so you had your advertising technique, which I'll admit was a little duplicitous to bring people in and they would anchor on that lower price and they would be like, okay, I know what my, that amount of money gets me. Right. And then they would go inevitably all the way up to the really, really expensive one. And they lay on that. And when they see that one and, and they would anchor in their mind on that price. And then they would usually fall somewhere in the middle, right. One of the, one of the middle beds every single solitary time. But going through that business for like a year, I think I had for like a year and a half or whatever, sometimes people would just walk right in and buy the expensive one. And then sometimes people would, would actually take the cheap one. And then I'd have to take another one and put it in plastic and run it over again, which is really annoying. But when you have the range, when you have the range, everybody kind of, one, it establishes the value of the one on the top end. And then two, everybody sort of self selects and you really do have something for everyone. And so, you know, it's like the Russian doll thing. Like you had the three price points, but you could have gone into limited editions on the three. And then if you would have done the limited editions on the three, it would have, it would have taken away any of that anguish or doubt you had in how do I price the original? Because some of the limited editions could have been $25,000. I mean, it could have been living edition of four hand signed by Megh, you know, giant thing, including a program, like, you know, so anyway, first of all, first world problems here, Megh, you killed this thing. Totally.

Megh Knappenberger: I know. I'm like, it went pretty well, Patrick.

Patrick Shanahan: You know what though? It's like, it is like the power of being able to pre-plan and think about things even just like a few weeks in advance rather than like going with my pants on fire. And I think, you know, having, doing work like this and newsjacking within a little bit more specific parameters, then like a lot of the work is done already rather than like choosing a completely new island every time and kind of like restarting from scratch and like choosing what accounts to post it to and, you know, all that stuff that you have to figure out like in the heat of a moment, it's helpful to have like as much done as possible in advance. And that is definitely a lesson that I've learned along the way. It's like, how much of this can be done and automated and like ready to roll so that I think some of that like panic, like panic creating, panic putting it out there, trying to like, trying to capitalize like that also people can, people can smell that in the same way that they can smell when something is not authentic. So yeah. But I mean, that's like a, it's a learning process. We're all just kind of figuring this out as we go.

Patrick Shanahan: 100%. I mean, us too, right?

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah.

Patrick Shanahan: You know, and that's why I love talking about it after the

 fact because it's very easy to get bogged down in the emotion of things, especially when it comes to pricing, but it's just, it's just simple math. It's a mathematical equation of ones and zeros and there should be no emotion in it. Way easier said than done.

Megh Knappenberger: Totally. I like, I like designing the things.

Patrick Shanahan: Well, you've been awesome with the time. I totally appreciate you. I totally appreciate you sharing the story. I want to leave with, well, first of all, do you have anything you want to promote?

Megh Knappenberger: Well, if you're in Kansas City, I've got this Parade of Hearts thing going on. There'll be a lot of like info coming out next week around the auction of that piece and how much it sells for and all that. So that's kind of what's hot on my list right now. The other thing that I wish I could talk about, I can't announce quite yet, but it's, it's pretty exciting.

Patrick Shanahan: I love the tease. I love that.

Megh Knappenberger: Natural born marketer, natural born marketer right there.

Patrick Shanahan: It bums me out that you're not gonna know what this thing sells for, by the way. I would love to know.

Megh Knappenberger: No, I will know. I'll be there and I will be there in person. Yeah. No, I'll be there taking a video. Like there will be, I just will not receive any of the proceeds. They're all going to local organizations and it's a really great fundraiser, good cause. But it's, it's exciting to see what happens.

Patrick Shanahan: For sure, for sure. And it's, you know, it's still, it's still the, the candidate makes work and what it's selling for. Okay. So to follow all that, the best place to keep up with Megh and everything she's doing is it Meg Makes Art, M-E-G-H Makes Art at handle on Instagram. Everything else is there. If you're an artist, don't get on her email list though, because then she's just gonna have to pay and you guys are, unless you really are interested in your work. I feel like I, I constantly have to like worry about like flooding your email list with a bunch of artists that I just wanted like, what do you know about art storefronts? Is it good? Do you like the platform? You have you with it? I don't want to do it, but before, before you've a moose, I am a first year, second year, third year artist, just getting going, starting on my marketing, learning it all, trying to balance that with probably a day job or other commitments or everything else hitting, banging my head against the wall sometimes. How do I keep going, superstar Megh? What is your advice with that particular avatar?

Megh Knappenberger: Oh yeah. Get very, very clear on what you want and then work towards that. I think a lot of times artists are trying to fulfill something that is somebody else's dream. And like, what, what do you actually want to do with your art and then go from there.

Patrick Shanahan: Boom. Love it. Megh, thank you. Appreciate you. Stay tuned to Meg's thing where we'll on to Meg's Instagram where we will get updates on how this whole thing goes down. And just as a final, so I write it down, when is the auction? Because now I'm interested.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, it's on Friday, next Friday. So a week from today on the 17th.

Patrick Shanahan: Boom. Awesome. All right. Well, congratulations. I appreciate you. Thanks for taking the time. Thanks everybody for listening.

Megh Knappenberger: You got it. Until next time, have a good one.