Patrick:

Welcome to another edition of the Art Marketing podcast and today we have a very special guest joining us, artist Megh Navenburger. Megh, how are you doing?

Megh:

I'm great. How are you today?

Patrick:

Good. Good.

Megh:

Good.

Patrick:

I'm excited to talk to you.

Megh:

Yeah, me too.

Patrick:

Brief story, brief story I was thinking about, and I don't know if you know this, well you definitely don't know the inside story, but maybe you know the Amazon story. There's a story about the early days of Amazon, right? In the Amazon offices in Washington, Jeff Beezos, or Beezos, however you want to say it, rigged up a bell to ring inside the office every time that it got an order, right? Every time somebody ordered a book, the bell would just go ding. Then, obviously, knowing Amazon's story, like, it started ringing faster, and faster, and faster, and faster and it would get everybody in the office fired up, "We got another one." It would ring once a day, and then 10 times a day, and then 100 times a day, and obviously, the bell had to be taken down in pretty short order.

What I love about that story is we took a page from his playbook and we actually have the Art Storefronts app stitched to a channel in Slack and what it does is every time a piece of art is ordered on the site, it pops into that Slack channel and it looks at it. I got to say, Megh, I've been seeing you in that Slack channel quite a bit. I mean, the bell for your art has been ringing, and ringing, and ringing.

Megh:

I love it.

Patrick:

Yeah, so huge congrats on that success, which I think is just absolutely amazing. I was thinking also as we were starting this, in addition to your tremendous sales volume, you're quite literally the artist that smart marketing artist love to hate.

Megh:

Oh.

Patrick:

Gary Vanderchuck, this guy that I follow on social, I don't know if you follow him, has this like, he has this constant mantra that he bangs, which is like no amount of marketing can fix a crappy product, right?

Megh:

Oh man.

Patrick:

So it doesn't matter how good you are, if your product's not good. But you ...

Megh:

It's so true.

Patrick:

... Are the opposite of that. Like, no amount of marketing is necessary in what would traditionally be called marketing. No SEO, no strong EO marketing, Facebook ads, when you have nailed the product market fit like you have, which is just amazing. As a quick aside listeners, I literally did a little bit of homework before I talked to Megh and I went and checked out her site and the homepage does not even have site titles or a meta description.

Megh:

I know.

Patrick:

She did not have the Facebook Pixel installed on her site, which is a cardinal sin in 2018 modern marketing.

Megh:

I know. I promptly fixed that after we talked, so it's there now.

Patrick:

Yeah, you did. But I love that. As I was saying before we hit record is like, that is such an anomaly. That is such a unique and unheard of position to be in. Not just art, whatever business, right? You're operating a digital online business and you've got product market fit so nailed. I would love to delve into that to try and unpack that to figure that out. I'm really excited to do that, and then side note, I'm also really excited for you to put all that stuff into place. [crosstalk 00:03:12]

Megh:

I know.

Patrick:

Home run.

Megh:

Yeah, sometime laser focus is ...

Patrick:

Let's get into-

Megh:

I had laser focus on one thing, but I did leave out a lot of that. Just like, "All right, I don't have time for this right now, so I'm just going to focus on one thing and it worked for me. But for the long term that's not my plan.

Patrick:

Yeah, yeah you need to fix it. That's why you're the artist marketers love to hate.

Megh:

Yes.

Patrick:

Let me ... Start at the beginning, give us a little bit of the nig nag Navenburger origin starting.

Megh:

Sure. A lot of the story involves KU, University of Kansas. I graduated from there. I had got a degree in graphic design and I was a graphic designer for about 12 years, before sort of pursuing fine art full time. I've always painted on the side. It was kind of my hobby. I never believed it was a real career choice. For the last seven years of my design career I ran a branding studio. I have a pretty good background in brand development, strategy, marketing and towards the end of that time I had an injury to my back that was pretty rough. I sort of took a forced sabbatical to just get well and heal.

During that time I had to be standing all the time, because my ... I couldn't sit with the injury. You can paint when you're standing. I got back into that old habit and realized like, "Oh my gosh, I miss this so much." I just ... I was doing a lot of other sort of work on myself during that time and realized man, life is too short not to just spend my time doing the thing that I love and maybe I can make this into a career. I love this. That's what I did. I made the craziest decision to just basically say, I'm going to give painting a go and close my design business, which was very successful and that's what I did.

Patrick:

Wow.

Megh:

Totally crazy leap, yeah.

Patrick:

Wow, yeah most people would wait and get the side hustle going. It sounds like you literally too the boat to the island, burned the boat. There's no going back.

Megh:

I did and at the time I had a two year old and a husband who was so supportive. I couldn't have done it without him. I've told this story a few times, but I took him to lunch and sort of handed him a beer and told him what I was going to do. He said, "I trust you to do anything, except be on time anywhere. It's like, "Great, all right." He just ... Full 100% trust in me and I think that was a big sort of support to making this work. That's kind of how I got into painting and yeah.

Patrick:

Amazing [crosstalk 00:06:08] ...

Megh:

Tell me where you want me to go from here.

Patrick:

Yeah, no, no that's great and I noticed from your website. You paint literally exclusively with a palate knife right?

Megh:

I do yeah. I like the way you can make the paint a little chunkier. Just the look of it is a little more like energetic I think than a brush. I bought into that probably 10 or 15 years ago and it just, it stuck with me.

Patrick:

Yeah it's amazing the texture and the pop it gives, totally unusual in of itself.

Megh:

Thank you.

Patrick:

Let's drill into, you decided to give it a go. What did that look like at first and kind of catch us up how you went from there to here.

Megh:

Okay, at first it was just a ton of throwing something at the wall and seeing if it will stick.

Patrick:

Okay.

Megh:

Maybe I'll do this, maybe I'll try doing these local craft shows, so I did that. It was like, this is for the amount of time it takes to do this, I'm not going to make enough money. Everything in my head I looked at from a pretty strategic business perspective, which I think is kind of unique for an artist. It was just like, "I have a family. I have to bring in half of our income and sitting at a craft fair all day and making $200 is not going to work." Tried that and that X that off my list. Then I started trying different styles of commissions at different rates and than realized, okay this isn't going to work and on and on and on.

I spent probably the first half of my first year just trying things and then quickly pivoting and realizing, okay that's not going to work. What can I do next? I kind of rolled quickly into the idea that I need to be able to make something once and sell it a bunch of times. It's kind of like the traditional licensing method. That I think, for any artist, at least in some capacity of their business makes a ton of sense. Selling prints of our work, that's what Art Storefronts is all about.

Allows us to spend a lot of time on an original and then move on to the next thing while that original piece still makes money sort of forever. With that idea in mind, I ... I guess not really that idea in mind. I'd like to say I had that strategy before I kind of fell into it, but I ... I did a painting for my husband for Father's Day last summer. It was a portrait of Doctor James [Naysmith 00:08:37] who is the adventurer of basketball. The first coach at KU. KU is like sort of the Mecca for College basketball. Anybody sort of follows the sport would know that.

I wanted to give him something that was kind of unique and something nobody else would have. I had been in the Capital Building in Topeka in the basement randomly, because I like to go and explore. I found myself there and they have this whole hallway of famous mid westerners and their portraits of all the people in the mid west who sort of made a difference. There was a portrait of James Naysmith down there and I thought oh my gosh this would be the perfect gift for my husband. Fast forward I paint it. He sends texts to all of his brothers, who are all big Jayhawks as well. Everybody starts going crazy for it and I realize okay, I should probably sell prints of this.

The prints did really well for Father's day. I did a very not well planned Instagram boosted post for that.

Patrick:

Okay.

Megh:

But the post hit Michael Wilson who owns Nile Watches here in Kansas City. He bought one of those prints for his shop. This is a very circular story, but I promise it ends in a good place. He buys one of these prints. At the time and still now I pretty much Google everybody who buys anything, because you never know who somebody ... When somebody who can change your career is [crosstalk 00:10:12] shopping for stuff. I Googled him and it was like, "Oh okay I'm going to hand deliver this one." I hand deliver. We get to chatting. While we were chatting he ... We were chatting about how he had this watch that he had licensed with the University of Kansas.

I kind of said off hand, I have always thought about doing that, but I've heard it's impossible. He said, I can help you get licensed. That was the click beginning of the whole sort of Jayhawk extravaganza that now I'm in.

Patrick:

Wow. Yeah, which I can't wait [crosstalk 00:10:52] to get in with you, but before we do ...

Megh:

Yeah.

Patrick:

What was that entire time period from the time your husband [inaudible 00:10:59] to sort of [crosstalk 00:11:01] getting the Jayhawk done?

Megh:

It was about November to July, so however many months that is.

Patrick:

Wow. I don't know if you just had that built in innate ability, or you just knew, but you literally were able to test it, iterate and see what works and throw things against the wall that quickly. I mean that's a startup business mentality, which I think is really impressive. You were able to do all of that that quickly and then get to that licensing deal, let alone the Googling and going and delivering it by hand, which is amazing.

Megh:

Yes. I'm a little bit of a unicorn and I know this is ... Like you said this is something that people love to hate, but it's true. I have a very entrepreneurial family. I just have it sort of built in. I also happen to be a good artist. Yes, I can't stand when something doesn't work, or doesn't click. It's frustrating to me when something doesn't work the way I wanted it to, so I have this kind of drive to constantly rework and fix something. It's a little bit obsessive if I'm being honest.

Patrick:

Yeah, no it's amazing and I'll say I'm a hard core marketer. A lot of marketing is titles and there's these two episodes that I did earlier in the podcast called, Does My Art Suck Test Part One and Two right?

Megh:

Yes.

Patrick:

I feel bad, because the title ... It was meant to be provocative, but if I had to do over again, I would've gotten rid of the title, but in there I stress the same concepts where it's like, you have to iterate, you have to test and you have to go see if you've got a product the market wants. You're literally only limited by how quickly you can perform those tests and I think so many artists go out there and they don't perform those tests and they think they've got something. They realize ... They come to realize after the fact that the sales volume is just there. It's like, "No one is saying you're a crappy artist. You just have to iterate until you find something that the market wants and that's a really profound lesson and a hard lesson to learn, a hard to pill to swallow.

It goes for any business. It's not just art, it's like any ... You have to make sure you've got a product the market wants, before you expend all your energy. But enough with that rant. You're about to get ... You're going to figure out the licensing deal and ... Yeah, tell us where it went from there.

Megh:

Sure. Essentially we had this very loose conversation that day I delivered the print. It was like cool. It'd be great to partner on something. Maybe it'll be Jayhawk related. I went completely dark for three months. During that time I thought about it and figures I'm going to paint all six Jayhawks. Through the years Kansas had six different icons they used as the KU logo. They're kind of this like part of velour. People love these throw back Jayhawks. If you go into ... In Kansas City we have all these stores, where you can go buy Kansas gear. People are really into their sports here.

People are really into these throwbacks. I painted all six and I also went to a limestone quarry and got powdered limestone and mixed that into the paint, because at KU rock chalk Jayhawk is the chant. It's been part of the school forever. It's this huge piece of the history. Nobody had ever really taken that chant and made it into something tactile and real and something you could see. That was this hugely cool thing. Three months go by. I call Michael and I say like, "Hey you should come over, I want to show you something."

I had all six paintings completely done, framed, ready to roll. I mean you could ... His jaw was on the floor. He's like, "Oh my God." I definitely kept my cards close to my chest on that, but ...

Patrick:

Yeah.

Megh:

From there we put together the whole plan for marketing. The way we're going to launch, how much the budget is to market everything. The projections of what KU will earn from the licensing percentages. The whole shebang. Before we go show them the paintings and ask for licensing permission. This is like insanity, because at this point when we go and have that meeting. I've had ... I've put four and a half months of my life into this. It's all ... I've invested a ton of money into just time wise, but also materials wise. Photography, framing, all that stuff.

Patrick:

Yeah.

Megh:

We go and they never say yes to artists ever. In 35 years that the guy has been doing licensing, he couldn't remember. He pretty much said no immediately when we sat down. We said ... We had actually brought the original paintings and lined them up outside of his office in the hallway. We said, "Okay, but can you at least ... Can you just look at these. Can you come out and let me show them to you." We kind of sold him through the originals and through the fact that there was rock chalk in the paint.

I got licensed and it was pretty amazing. I'm really one of the only artists that they've ever said yes to you. That means that what I did, because it's an artful representation of the Jayhawk, there's a lot of what I like to call game day gear, like foam fingers and coffee mugs with the giant Jayhawk on them. There's not a lot of classy things you would actually hang in your dining room, or somewhere outside of your man cave. This was like hitting a place, which is something that ...

This is a pain point that my husband and I have had in our own life, which is like, he loves KU and he collects all the random posters, but I don't want that ... I don't really want that hanging in regular parts of our house where people would see it.

Patrick:

Yes.

Megh:

This was strategic as I was doing this. I need to make something that is first beautiful art and second a Jayhawk. That's what I did and I think that's why they agreed to license, because it was something that did not exist out there. It's also something that frankly was going to be at a premium price point and they get a percentage of every sale. The projections of what it could make for KU was really good. I mean this is like a great thing for them too. It was kind of a win, win all around, yeah.

Patrick:

Yeah there's so much on tap from that. One, these licensing deals are so hard to get, so very well done.

Megh:

Thank you.

Patrick:

That was a huge risk on your part to just go ahead and devote ... That was like super hail Mary on all that time [crosstalk 00:17:45] and effort.

Megh:

It was.

Patrick:

That took some grit.

Megh:

I had ... The day that I found out that I was granted licensing I had 16 cents in my bank account and I have the screen grab to prove it.

Patrick:

Wow.

Megh:

Yeah it was a pretty intense couple of weeks there.

Patrick:

Yeah and then we'll link to these images in the show notes.

Megh:

Okay.

Patrick:

They are ... It's six Jayhawks, good size. Incredibly vibrant colors and the price point is not cheap. You're selling ... You sell the limited edition prints for how much?

Megh:

1,500 framed and matted and 1,200 just for the prints. They're hand signed and numbered. They were sort of like an exclusive ... I only made 152 sets. It was kind of like, if you want to be almost like the closest thing to having an original. Here's your next best thing.

Patrick:

Is that ... By the way are you just doing 152 sets and that's it, sold out?

Megh:

No. We decided to sort of launch these in three phases, or three tiers. The top tier was obviously the originals, which were priced at 25,000 a piece. Then the next tier down was these limited editions. Then the final tier is sort of the every Jayhawk price point. Those are going to be launching in March, kind of line with basketball craziness obviously. That'll be where people can buy individual prints and any size and any framing style. Kind of the whole Art Storefronts suite I guess.

Patrick:

Yeah. Two other things that struck out when you were telling me that story is one, because I get to see your actual sales volume. Do not underestimate a die hard and passionate niche, which you clearly [crosstalk 00:19:36] ...

Megh:

Oh yeah.

Patrick:

I mean it's said that like the Green Bay Packers fans are obligated to buy their body weight in official gear every single solitary year. I think I would rapidly add Jayhawks fans to that.

Megh:

Oh for sure.

Patrick:

It's so hard to find a good niche. There's so much art being created in today's day and age. I get these Facebook comments and these are trolls and cynical people. They always leave a comment like, "You don't want to mess with these Art Storefronts people, they're just going to steal your images." I write back and it's like, "Buddy, nobody cares to steal your images. You would be lucky if somebody wanted to steal your images."

Megh:

Exactly.

Patrick:

There are ... He was a photographer. It's like, "There are 250,000 cell phones coming online each day that are amazing cameras. Held by kids that are taking amazing photos all over the world and you're worried about somebody stealing your images. Are you nuts?"

Megh:

You haven't made it until somebody starts stealing your stuff and drilling you. I mean that's like everything that happens like that. I try to look at it as a positive thing.

Patrick:

So true and it is. But anyway the really powerful niche that you found. I think like there's such an abundance of art and images. If you don't niche down it is very difficult to make it. I'm sorry there are lots of paintings of flowers. There are a lot. There is a tremendous ... Photographs even more so. Photographs of travel, I'm sorry everybody has been to every National park that there is. You got to niche down so hard. I think that's tremendous what you've done there. Then the third is you designed the entire thing with the end in mind. What do I mean by that?

This is just like a profound thing for me. You know exactly where those things were going to hang. Those things were going to hang in every die hard fan's man cave all across Kansas and everywhere else that loves these people. You had that end position in mind and I think the sales reflected that, which is so smart.

Megh:

Thank you.

Patrick:

Yeah, no it's an amazing lesson to extract. I think there's a tremendous amount of wisdom in that. Where did Art Storefronts come in in terms of the timeline from ... When did you come onboard versus in that story?

Megh:

Well I kind of ... I came onboard I think in the process while I was painting the originals. Right when I started that. I had this kind of like if you build it they will come sort of thing. It was like, "Okay, if I'm going to start doing something where I'm selling prints that are ..." It's basically can become passive income really when you think about it. If I want to set that up I need to get myself out of the fulfillment game, meaning before I had a website through Wix and I would get orders. I would have to print them out and take them to FedEx. That is supreme waste of my time.

That's kind of ... Right as this was starting, just in it's infancy I switched over to Arts Store Fronts with that idea in mind. Okay, I want to start doing things like this. I need to have a platform that allows me to do that. That's where it came on.

Patrick:

Yeah so now you just ... Everything gets auto fulfilled. You're not touching any part of the process and it's glorious.

Megh:

Yes. The limited editions are a little more manual, because of the nature of them. That is something I would think through, or try to do a little differently next time. But when I set it up essentially it's like, "Okay I can't afford to produce all of these first and then sell them." I was kind of producing as I received the orders. It was all around the holidays, which was strategic for the holidays, but it was also ... The volume at Sky Line, because everybody on Art Storefronts was kicking ass this year. The volume was really high. Things got a little hairy around the holidays.

Patrick:

Yeah.

Megh:

It was great like Sky Line was so great and I don't want to knock them at all. But I'm looking very forward to moving into the next phase of this with the individual prints, because that will be all auto fulfilled. That's actually the biggest piece of the whole sort of puzzle of this, because it's kind of ongoing forever. That I hope to become like a pretty nice little hunk of passive income for me. Once it gets all set up and than I sort of get into a advertising cycle and all of that. Not completely passive, but I'm not shipping every individual order. Pretty awesome.

Patrick:

Yeah and I think you've listened to a lot of podcast I know. That rant that I went through with him, I think is so important it's ... There are so many artists out there. So many people that are selling art. It's so hard. If you have the ability to take a truly 30,000 foot view of your business and realize like, as an artist, okay originals are awesome. Of course we're going to sell originals. You always want to be selling originals. You always want to [crosstalk 00:24:45] everywhere you can. But think about the print business is another serious silo of your business and the ability to have price points that more accurately reflect every type of buyer in the market and take it seriously, because that's how you really build a robust business and really support yourself with art.

Megh:

Totally. The biggest piece of this is like, I am a Jayhawk and I love the Jayhawks. My husband is 1,000 times more crazy than I am. I chose something that's like, maybe in my sort of like ... It's something that I love, but it's not something that I would necessarily have painted just for myself. It was strategic in choosing something that people would love, but the whole thing is like, great it all did awesome. Then that creates this kind of like runway to do other, bigger work, to spend time on doing other things, so that you're not constantly in this cycle of okay I have 10 cents in my bank account. I need to quickly sell one thing.

Then you're kind of like caught in that cycle. I mean a lot of artists get stuck in that. I was stuck in that and I hate being uncomfortable like that. I was like, "I got to fix this." This was a strategic way to do that, to get something going that would like you said be a silo of my business. That doesn't mean it's going to be the only thing I ever do. It's just like a great ... Like okay, here's silo one. I would like to have 10 silos like this over time.

Patrick:

Yeah, exactly and keep adding them and bolting them on.

Megh:

Yeah.

Patrick:

It's just a fantastic way to grow the business. One other thing that you should active listen to and I always kind of struck by in a profound fashion. I think it's the second podcast. It might even first, or second, or third whatever. I'll send you the link.

Megh:

Okay.

Patrick:

It's Bill Stidham and he's an artist from Austin, but he actually ... He has a gallery, which I've actually been in to, which is in Central Mexico. What's interesting is the way that he runs it is ... I'll be honest with you. I mean we set up the software to be able to do this, but we didn't really think anyone would take advantage of it, or we didn't think through it. I will say this, are you familiar with Bonobos it's like a male clothing brand.

Megh:

Yeah.

Patrick:

They're kind of cutting edge right? Because they have stores all across the United States and malls, but the clothes aren't there. There's no clothes there. You go in and you place your order and you can see how things fit in the store and then they ship them to you, so they don't have keep inventory and all of that. He's running his gallery down in Mexico in that fashion. He doesn't keep the inventory in there at all and you go in. You're like, "I really want this piece. It's fantastic." I guess he keeps a little bit of inventory, because there's internationals, they don't want to that shipping. But for everybody that the US that's in there.

He's in San Miguel [inaudible 00:27:26] which is a complete tourist town. All the US buyers come in there and they're like, "I really love this piece of art. I'd love to buy it." He's like, "Great." He just puts the order into his site and it ships and he never even sees it, never touch it, never gets anywhere near it. You could potentially do that. Think about that long term if you build out the Jayhawk profile. You could have a little shop in a mall with all the stuff hanging on the wall, even potential originals and then just say, "Look we'll ship it to you, put it there." It could be interesting.

Megh:

Yeah that's a great idea.

Patrick:

Yeah, the one story too that you're going to have to tell the listeners which is amazing. You actually sold the six originals.

Megh:

I did.

Patrick:

Why don't you tell us about that.

Megh:

I did, it was pretty epic. Yeah like I said I had priced them at 25,000 a piece. I did that really with the, like you said the end game in mind. I truly believed that these were going to become iconic pieces of KU art and part of the whole sort of world of it. I wanted them to be priced accordingly, so that someday it's like, "Oh man those originals ... I can't believe they have those originals." The originals are so priceless. Also, we wanted to price them in a way that they would make news. When they sold they would make news. When we launched the originals at the Plaza Art Fair here in Kansas City, which is the biggest fair here and we got a couple of individual offers that night actually, the first night.

Again, I am crazy and turned them down, because I really wanted them to stay together as a set. I wanted them to all eventually have the opportunity to hang in Allen Field House, which is where the Jayhawks play basketball. I turned those offers down and was crazy. Then a month goes by and we're all kind of sweating. As luck would have it, or I guess work and luck, I was working sort of in trade with a PR company. The newspaper here in Kansas City, the Kansas City Star did an article on me and it was a full page article, big picture. All about the story of painting them. About the price point, everything. That night that that article was in print, the originals sold as a set to a collector in Tulsa.

A huge Jayhawk couple. It was pretty cool. People keep asking me like, "Oh my God, can you believe that that happened?" It was like, "Yeah of course I can, because this is how I planned it all to happen. If I didn't believe they were going to sell than why would anyone buy them?" I had to believe that they were worth that and market them as such and talk about them as such and just sort of like bring it to me. I know that sounds a little cocky [crosstalk 00:30:30], but that's the way you have to be sometimes.

Patrick:

Absolutely. Essentially if I'm unpacking all that correctly, you're saying you don't have 16 cents in the bank anymore?

Megh:

No I have a little more, it's great. I mean there's royalties that go out, percentages and all of that stuff, but it gave me runway. It gave my husband a chance to leave his job and start freelancing to help me to kind of change our family dynamic a ton, which is awesome. This is all about ... For me this is about my family and us being able to travel and do stuff together and eat dinner together every night. There's a real sort of emotional connection for me to being really successful, because it's like great. Then my family can be doing stuff all together and we can be really happy. This is the beginning of that for us.

Patrick:

Love it. Living the dream, congratulations.

Megh:

Thank you.

Patrick:

We covered the originals. we covered the limited edition prints. Why don't you tease us kind of what you have coming up.

Megh:

Sure.

Patrick:

Depending on when people listen to this. We'll probably get this thing out next week, so you'll still be ahead of it. Why don't you just tease what's coming up.

Megh:

Sure, I'll be launching the individual prints, kind of around the big 12 tournament, which is in early March. People will be able to order a print of any year in any size they want and I've had a ton of inquiries about this over the past few months. Like, "Hey I love these, but I can't afford the $1,500 set. Are you going to sell them individually?" I expect a pretty big kind of influx from this. With that launch [crosstalk 00:32:13] ...

Patrick:

What are you going to price them at? Are you literally selling one size, this it boom?

Megh:

No, there's going to be ... I think I'm going to do seven sizes.

Patrick:

Oh wow.

Megh:

There's a lot of different complexities and things that I'm still kind of figuring out the pricing right now with it. They'll be at a higher price point than a typical print. They're not going to be $20, but they will be more affordable. They're kind of like the thing that everybody can have, but it's still like having a nice piece of fine art. Probably like a 12 ... A one foot square is probably going to be around the 75 to 100 mark. I'm still kind of working that out, depending on like ... Again I had these licensing royalties that go out and there's a lot of cost to account for in the pricing, yeah. I haven't figured it out yet.

Patrick:

Right. It's exciting. We'll definitely link up to all of that.

Megh:

Thank you.

Patrick:

Then selfishly I talked to [crosstalk 00:33:17] a week ago ahead of this podcast and I was looking at her stuff just going oh you are in such a good spot. You haven't done any of the marketing stuff. I made her listen ... I made you ... I suggested that she listen to a couple of podcasts, yes, yes. One of which was the stuff on Many Chat, because obviously with Many Chat and messenger I'm over the moon on this one. Banging the drum incessantly and whatever single solitary customer we have in there is just ... Every time it's tried it's just like another huge win. It doesn't matter who the artist is, it's amazing.

We're going to be helping Megh do a couple of contest so you guys can see coming up here to celebrate the release. I'm actually really excited about that. I think it's going to go big.

Megh:

Yeah, I mean it's ... I listened to that podcast and then I went through like you guys did, kine of an automated instruction, or kind of showed how it works. It was like, "Oh my God, this is ... I mean this is some next level stuff." It's really not that complicated. I'm very excited about it. I think it's going to do hugely well for me.

Patrick:

Yeah, so we got to get going on the creative for that.

Megh:

Yeah.

Patrick:

On that note I think we'll leave it there. I think the story was amazing, some amazing stuff to unpack.

Megh:

Thank you.

Patrick:

We'll get you back and we'll talk about the Many Chat case study after we do it, which I think will be fun. But in the meantime if people want to find out more about you, where do you want them to go?

Megh:

My website is meghmakesart, which M-E-G-H makes art and as well as I'm pretty active on Instagram. I'm Megh makes art there. I'm Megh makes art everywhere. Wherever you like to get your stuff. Look for me there.

Patrick:

All right. That's a perfect place to end it. Thank you so much for taking the time, yeah huge congrats on everything.