Artist Mays Mayhew

Patrick sits down with artist Mays Mayhew, who shares her journey from managing art supply stores to becoming a full-time artist. Mays discusses the challenges of navigating the art market, the importance of storytelling in selling art, and her strategies for pricing and negotiating with clients. Discover how she balances family life with her passion for art and learn valuable tips for succeeding in art fairs and online sales. Tune in for a deep dive into the world of art entrepreneurship!

Podcast Transcribe

Mays Mayhew: I grew up in a no-parent home, and I really wanted to pour into the kids. So for three years, I did nothing but kids. And then, just that art itch—it doesn't leave you. Like, when you're an artist and you're born that way, and that's the skill set you have, it just doesn't leave you. So he always says, "Give something for give up." So last year, I really worked on that. If I'm going to give you a discount, then I want you to do this for me. I made four, I sold three. One's in a gallery, so that was a good indicator for me that this was the right direction to go. And so those were $3,200. So the $3,200—they all sold, and then the last one is in the gallery. And so I figured if my average sale is around $1,850, then that makes these $5,000. So you don't ever come down on price unless you get something in return. This last year, yeah, and it's been successful. Yeah, it's the key. It's like something deeply primal and animal-driven in us. Like, if somebody is going to come and buy that thing, and they want to negotiate with you, and they ask for a lower price, and you just say yes, it's like the thrill of the hunt and the kill is gone.

Patrick Shanahan: All right, coming up on another edition of the Art Marketing Podcast, I'm back with another artist interview with none other than Mays Mayhew. Which, by the way, as artist names go, that's such a marketable name. Rolls off the tip of the tongue right there—Mays Mayhew. What was your maiden name, or is that your maiden name you stuck with?

Mays Mayhew: Mayhew is my maiden name. My married name is Camarada, which has too many A's, and people either think you're Italian or Japanese—neither.

Patrick Shanahan: Yes, so you stuck with Mayhew. I don't blame you. I probably would have stuck with it too because it's just a very good artist name. I'm super excited to do this interview because I put Mays at the top of the list in terms of show and fair-experienced operators that have a playbook like no one else has. So we're definitely getting into that, but we'll get into that. Give us a little intro—who you are, what you do, the elevator pitch, if you will.

Mays Mayhew: All right, I'm either the person that has just started doing this after they retired, or you have people that have been doing it since they were three. I'm the one that's been doing it since I was three. I live, breathe, smell everything art all the time. I went to art school, and my professors, when I asked them, "How am I going to make a living out of this?" they said, "You can become an art professor." I tried that. I applied to all the great schools—Yale, Princeton—they have good art programs, and got rejected from all of them. Not just one year, two years in a row. So I'm like, "What am I going to do?" I started working at Utrecht Art Supply stores, and I had to grow up very fast when I was young because I grew up in a no-parent home. And so they recognized that I was good managerially, I'm focused, and so I started not only just managing those art stores, I started opening them up. So I opened them up for six years—six stores in six years. So I was young, single, it's easy to move cross-country every 12 months. And then I was like, "Retail just burned me out." So I went to days a week, never closing, right? All the, yeah, hard, especially when you're the manager. I managed the store, so we get all those problems from the employees and hard road. Yeah, so anyway, so just my brain got fried, and I went, "I'm sick of being poor," so I went and got an MBA in marketing and then worked in product development in art materials. So I worked for big companies like Sanford for the color pencils and Crescent Cardboard and Friskars. So I did that for about 10 years, and then I got married. So I said, "We're going to—I wanted to be with my kids because I grew up in a no-parent home, and I really wanted to pour into the kids." And so for three years, I did nothing but kids. And then just that art itch—it doesn't leave you. Like, when you're an artist, you're born that way, and that's the skill set you have, it just doesn't leave you. And so I just started doing art with the kids. And so that's around 2018. I actually got my first business license in 2018. And I have to say, for all the new people, if you're on the fence, get that business license because that is a game-changer. It's a huge mindset when you apply for that business license, you get the business license, and you become the sole entrepreneur. And so in 2019, I started doing art fairs full-time. So I was doing art fairs for 15 years like on the side, like doing the full-time job, being a product manager, and all that. Took three years break for the kids, and then started up again, and then started doing 10 shows a year. And then so now, the last couple of five years, I've been full-time for five years. So I do about 20 events a year.

Patrick Shanahan: Wow, that's a lot. That's a lot. Yeah, and you're so—you're based in Chicagoland, yeah? How far out does a concentric circle go of shows that you'll travel to?

Mays Mayhew: We're at eight hours right now. So my husband does all the driving, and we—so I have a little—I'll show you a little map. Wow, and that little map is eight hours. And so the problem is now that I'm trying to do high-end fairs and just high-end—like, I want my average sale to be up. And the painting behind you is $5,500. And so I want to sell a lot of these this year. And so a lot of those shows are on the East Coast, in Texas, and so I got to be successful this year. If I'm not successful this year, I won't go out because the longer you travel, the higher price is. I just bought a new Ford Transit van. It gets 14 miles a gallon. Wow. So if the price of gas doesn't go down, then that's going to be a pretty expensive road trip. My friends that do this for a living, they have the same vehicle. They spend about $900 in gas alone. So we want to make sure that we are successful, and the ROI is there in the eight hours around our home first before we start going farther. And the Transit van for you is just as much about carrying the art in the booth and supplies as it is the whole fam, huh?

Mays Mayhew: Oh yeah, yeah. So I had a Dodge Caravan for six years, and that was hard. Yeah, I don't know if you look at my Instagram feed, you can see us packed in like sardines. There's joys, and there's pros and cons to having a smaller vehicle. You can park anywhere. Now, parking is a big deal. Yeah, and then the kids and keeping the kids entertained for eight-hour trips. Mine are pretty good. Like, we are screen-free, so screen family—you don't have to deal with that. Like, they're now—I know it's controversial, but once you start the screen-free and the screens, the kids are going to want that constant, and there's no going back. No going back. Yeah, you can't go back. No way. You know, you start when you're two, you're done. Anyway, so we never did that. So our kids draw in the car, they do Legos in the car, Battleship, and all this other stuff. So we work really good as a team.

Patrick Shanahan: Actually, I admire you immensely for that already. Just out of curiosity—quick tangent, then we'll get off of it because I don't want it to be about kids—but does that mean you and your husband don't look at the phone at all? Do you like maintain that level of discipline too?

Mays Mayhew: No, actually, my husband works in tech. So, got it. So like, he actually—I know you're gonna ask this question, so we might as well go there. My husband actually works in AI, and the companies call him all the time. They—for him to—I'm missing that name when you want to call somebody an expert, and you ask them all these questions, and you get $300 an hour. Yeah, consultant. For consultant, yeah, yeah, there you go. So yeah, everything he does is AI. So he's not screen-free. Yeah, he's definitely not screen-free. But that's amazing. I mean, and I feel like—so I've written this like super in-depth—many of you guys will know this post on how to do shows and fairs. And there's a ton of Mays images featured in that post because she's just been at this for a long time and doing extremely well from a macro standpoint. Let me ask you a question because I feel like you guys that are on the front lines doing the shows and fairs—canaries in the coal mine—how down do you think the art market is right now? How big of a recession do you feel like we're in?

Mays Mayhew: I know exactly. Yeah, it's 25%. Yeah, so that was last year. So my sales were 25% down. And if you look at other industry standards like Art Basel and Southeby's, it's actually—I thought it was strange that they are also 25%. But those numbers are public. So yeah, we're in line with the market. So let me just—I know you're going to want to know this—so when I started, I signed up for ASF in, I think, 2021. So I was listening to you guys for about a year. I know I listened to every single podcast you've ever done, Patrick. And this is gonna sound weird, but your voice sounds like one of my brother's voices, and so it's like nostalgic. Yeah, he's got the deep and raspy thing going too. No, it's the confidence and the—like, glass always half full. Anyways, and also, he runs a motorcycle business in California. I need his number then. I love motorcycles. Oh yeah, yeah. So anyways, the numbers—so I signed up for ASF. I did double what I did the year before, and then I did double, and then I did double, and then I did double. And now I'm 25% down. So I was climbing this huge trajectory on sales, and I could tell you why that happens. Actually, I know every single reason why it went up. And then this year, last year, was just the election. But I do anticipate that this year will be back up. I really do believe that.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, it's interesting because I get it. Like, you always want to get like an economic bead, and I love talking about it, and I hate talking about it. I hate talking about it because I don't want to give anyone any ideas about don't control your effort because, right, like reality is ups and downs. And what everyone conclusively finds too is that like when it's down and it's hard, if you can make it through that, you are so well positioned when things turn around because you've already been in the trenches and dealt with all of it. But so we have 12,000 customers now, right? Yeah, good job. I look weekly at all of the data of all the sales on all the websites, so I have that as an economic indicator. And then I balance that with what I'm reading with publicly available data. And then what's happened recently is I'll get emails from customers, and I really feel like I get to balance the three and come up with my own position about where things are and get to adjust what strategies to focus on and how to best prepare for it. But I think I think 25% down is pretty accurate. Like, it is what it is, and it's okay being all right with that. But however, I just got to—I don't want to be half-glass. I don't want to be pessimistic. Yeah, my strategy for this next year—like this painting behind me is $5,000—is to concentrate on the high-net-worth individual because they are. And so I'm actually trying to change my business model to be more like a white-glove experience. You know, I bought a new display. I just invested $5,000 in a new display, $50,000 in the new van, and I'm going to try to go that way and then increase my average sale.

Patrick Shanahan: I love it. Talk to us about your lineup. What's the price range on the lineup that you currently have in a booth? And let's say before you're going up-market, white-glove, then how much did you raise prices? I would love to hear that.

Mays Mayhew: Okay, so last year, I made ones that were similar to these, but they're a little bit smaller. Now, it's—I have a very small time constraint, even though I do work about—I work about, I don't know, nine hours a day after the homeschooling. And I don't want to watch—I don't watch TV. I'm just like all in the business. So I sold—I made four, I sold three. One's in a gallery, so that was a good indicator for me that this was the right direction to go. And so those were $3,200. So the $3,200—they all sold, and then the last one is in the gallery. And so I figured if my average sale is around $1,850, then that makes these $5,000. I do have high-end, and I sell about one last year. It was down. I sold one show. So these over here, I used to sell three of these a show, and those were $2,000. So those are 40 by 60, the right here. And I used to sell a lot of those. I didn't—they were marked at $2,000, but I didn't always sell $2,000 because everyone wants a discount, which is—you have to mark that. You have to have that 100%. And I love that you said that because like, people get so wrapped up in that. If 50 buyers come up to you at a show on the higher-end pieces, how many have to ask for a discount? About half. Yeah, you have to just—you have to just be ready for it. That's it. If they give you full price, great. But if you've raised your prices a little bit such that you account for the fact that some people are not going to leave unless they can negotiate, you win both ways. There's a guy that I follow—Black Swan Group. I don't know if you've ever heard. I know the book. I know Nassim Taleb wrote the book, but yeah, yeah. Oh, he's—if anyone wants to learn about negotiations, he's really good. I forget his name, but he's an ex-negotiator for the CIA or something like that. Yeah, yeah, I know exactly who you're talking about now. And everything else, yeah, I've seen him. Yeah, Black Swan Group is his thing. And so he always says, "You always have to give up. You have to give something for give up." So I really last year really worked on that. If I'm going to give you a discount, then I want you to do this for me. And so people will do that. Yeah, so you don't ever come down on price unless you get something in return. This last year, yeah, and it's been successful. Yeah, it's the key. There's something deeply primal and animal-driven in us. Like, if somebody is going to come and buy that thing, and they want to negotiate with you, and they ask you for a lower price, and you just say yes, it's like the thrill of the hunt and the kill is gone.

Patrick Shanahan: You know, oh yeah, this client that I'm—they just do it for fun. Like, how did they make their millions? By having fun negotiating by not ever paying retail ever under any circumstances. Yes, so that's—and it's fun for me. I actually like it. If you're going to go buy a car, bring me along because I will have fun with that. Yeah, people are asking like, "What's your go-to?" So I come into your booth, I'm like, "I really like that piece for $5,000. I want to give you $4,500." What do you immediately respond with? It's—what was the first price? Let's just say $5,000. And I'm like, "I'll give you $4,500." What are you coming back with?

Mays Mayhew: Cash. Yeah, I can do that if you give me cash because I don't want to pay the fees. And then what happens if they're like, "I don't have any cash. I got to do credit card." Oh, usually, I look for something that they have that I want, like maybe a referral or framed unframed. But sometimes I just won't. If it's the type of client, I won't negotiate that much after if I know if I'm down or if they tell a sad story. A lot—and I gotta also tell you, when people buy these big paintings, a lot is very emotional. Like, I'm not a landscape painter or a photographer, and I'm not an abstract person. Like, when people come in, they hear the story, or they have their own story, and then they ask my story. I would say actually half of them are actually like crying when they're purchasing the item. Like, it's that emotional. So many tears in my booth. So if we've shared a moment, and we usually do, and they're like, "Oh, $500," I say, "Cash." They say, "I don't have cash." If you're being a jerk, I'm gonna say no, sorry. Yeah, but if we have some emotional connection and it's just like a little bit, like 5%, I'll say yes.

Patrick Shanahan: That's really interesting. That's the first I've heard in quite some time about the emotional aspect. I'd love for you to unpack that a little bit. Is it—this reminds me of such and such—is that sort of how it always happens? Like, is that kind of the lead-in?

Mays Mayhew: Yeah, but first, see, this is the—now, this is really tricky, and I want to be relatable, but so this might not be relatable. So all of my work is based on the matrix of the Old Testament. Okay, okay. And that is not something that's very popular in today's culture. So when they'll come in, they'll come in and they'll say, "Tell me about this piece." So I don't want to tell them about the piece because I know it's not going to be relatable to them. So this is a very hard thing. So I'll pick up on what they are or who they are, like perhaps they're a parent or if they look like a high-net-worth individual. I'll break down that original story into something that's more relatable. Actually, this piece is called "Self Therapy" behind it, and most people say, "Oh, twins." And depending if they have twins or not—yes, it's twins. No, it's not twins. I try to make whatever that story is relatable and emotional to them without losing the initial reason why I painted it. And I'll give you a story. I was in Des Moines, and there's a painting of—I did a big piece like this, a big piece, 40 by 60, and she was carrying a wagon. And I have some derivative work on my website. And she said, "Tell me about this piece." And so I said, "Oh, you remember these Radio Flyer wagons?" Oh, I had one. I loved it. Yeah, I said, "Oh, my mom just died, and she was always about helping people, and this piece is called 'Your Kindness.'" And the woman just starts crying and crying. Wow. And I'm like, and while I still continued, so I'm like, "When my mom didn't have a lot of money, but we broke down the house and did all that, and I was the executor, and I really wanted the wagon, but she was my mom. She really wanted to give us an inheritance, but she was very poor. Like, she was on food stamps and everything, but she had the house, and so all of us kids did get some inheritance." And she said, "I am a wealth planner." She was an estate planner. Oh, wow. So and she used my piece as her greeting card for her clients for her wealth management clients. So like, that's how—like what I'm saying—like, they—I don't know like how that happened, but like that story just really aligned. And I try to give them a story of the original story that I think will most be relatable to them.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, which is amazing. The fact that you're even getting that emotion at all—it starts with the work, right? It would never even happen if you don't connect already. So that's already props to you on that. But the fact that you lean into it with story—I love that. I feel like I need to hear more about that. I can't tell a story. I have another story for that. I was in Columbus, and this is a really big show. If anyone's in the art fair market, this is a show that a quarter-million people come to the show. It's huge. Okay, really, really. So Buckeye—literally Buckeyes football and this show. Okay, so what happens is like when those shows are so big, you are in a cattle drive. You're walking down the road, and you can't move. Like, you can't—if you like a painting, you can't go into the booth because you're in this cattle drive, and you're going this way, right? And so it was one of those days, and so that was Saturday. And the next day, Sunday, I was walking the show. I'm very friendly. I like to see everybody. I like to see my friends. You kind of get a family like when you do these things. Yeah, so one guy was doing figurative work, and I know that figurative work is the hardest artwork to sell. So I'm gonna—I don't know this guy from Adam, so I just go up to like, "Hey, figurative work is hard to sell." Because he was selling figurative bronze sculptures. He's like, "No, it's not hard for me. In fact, I did $20,000 last yesterday." I'm like, "Okay, so how did that happen?" He's like, "I started telling stories." He's like, "My family is in dance, so he was doing all these bronze sculptures of dancers." Like, I had my own agenda with my artwork. He's like, "That was not working for the customer." And so the high-net-worth individual sees this story and sees the sculpture, and they need to know like how hard they tried in their business and then they're like working and strategic, and then all those long hours pay off. He's like, "When don't you tell the stories about that relates to who you're talking to, then you'll sell." So I'm like, "Okay." I go back to my booth, and there's still a lot of people. And if you do art fairs, like, drain the energy out of you, and you got to have a lot of reserve. So anyway, so I immediately went back to my booth, and I made—I wrote out the story, and I put it by each one of these, especially the big paintings. I just told you I don't like to tell people those stories because why I do it in the first place does not resonate with people. So I broke it down to three sentences of this is resilience, this is about introspection. I put a little story, and I had a piece called "Gratitude," and I'll show you actually. I just did another one. Yeah, in May—is it like a card that's underneath it? Oh, that's yeah. So I did one like this, and first one, and this group of ladies come in. They're having fun. I'm thinking, "Oh, they're not interested in paintings. They're just interested in a sunny day in Columbus." And she reads the card, and the card to this painting is about gratitude about—oh, how hard you work and how thankful you are. And she—do not believe this, but I just—she was an older lady, older than me, probably in her 60s. She said, "I was just with my mom, and my mom told me I needed more gratitude." And so she—that painting was $2,000, and she bought the $2,000 painting because she saw that little story right there. And she's like, "Tell me more of it." And she's—and that's that hand. I—it was handwritten. It was not neat. It was just in my handwriting, and she's like, "You need to take that to the back of the painting." And I did. Wow. If that's the best takeaway from the entire thing is that was $2,000 of revenue that happened that would not have happened because you wrote out a card. If people don't understand how important story is to the entire thing—yeah, I think there's a misconception out there that in some world, like, it's your art, it's your baby, it's so awesome. It's on the strength of the caliber and the quality of the image alone, it will work, right? It will sell. And I think that would be the case if it didn't have any competition. Right, right. Where does everyone market their work? On social media, that is just image after image. It doesn't matter how good you are. Picasso would get looked over, right? Yeah, he definitely would because it's like, "Okay, how are you gonna be the tree that stands out in the rainforest? Good luck with that one." Right, the story is how you do that. The story is what changes everything, and it's so important. It's so important for the photographers. It's so important for the artists across the board. And I, by the way, perfect segue into why AI is so important. Those stories are hard to come up with. Let the AI give you the fire starter to come up with the story. Let it rewrite it for you a little bit, even if you just have bullet points. But I don't want to—I don't want to go just into that, but we need to figure out how we're going to get more of that story into your social media posts. So I'm parking that. I'm parking that in the back of my mind right now. What I would love to hear from you because you know about the shows and the fairs better than anyone else—I get the $900 in gas, I get maybe $300 or $400 in hotels, right? So every show you go to, before you've even paid for the booth fees, you're in a grand or $1,500, right?

Mays Mayhew: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Patrick Shanahan: So what is the average booth fees normally? And where I would like to do is like a breakdown because no one talks about the nuts and bolts. Like, I would love to hear how you judge a good, bad, mediocre show. Is it two times expense? Is it 10 times expense? Is it 20 times expense? And how that all looks and maps out actually being on the road and doing that.

Mays Mayhew: Okay, she came from here. She just went to the notes. I have maybe I should not have the numbers, but I have a spreadsheet that has all that data in there. Amazing. And then I have a—I don't know what it is—I have a breakdown of what is profit and what is sales because those are two different numbers. And if I was talking to a new person, do not look at your sales number. You have to look at your profit number. You have to look at your profit number because you can be thinking you're doing great. I did $100,000, and then you only make 5%. When is this a grocery store? This is—you can't have it. So I'm gonna—I'll tell you some things that I look at. I hope this isn't too boring for the artist.

Patrick Shanahan: No, this is what people love. They love the nitty-gritty.

Mays Mayhew: Okay, I know. Oh, right. By the way, so I have a huge binder that has all of the data in it. So I know—I write down what the painting was, how much it was, and I even put a few notes about what they look like. Okay, we need to start digitizing this, by the way. I gotta tell you, your husband, the AI expert, needs to start digitizing this immediately. I know you could just scan it and put it in. He likes CLA. Put it in CLA, and it'll OCR it's called. But yes, yeah. So I actually take this information when I'm home, and I actually type it up. Okay, so anyway, so I have—I'll just show you a show. So this is what Brookside looks like. Brookside is in Kansas City. Kansas City is a very good market for art right now. I think one—I forget her name—Meg Pict. Yeah, it's a very good city for art right now. It's really growing. So I am around—you're right. I was—I'm around $2,000 to $1,500 in the show, and then I have to make—I don't know, two, three. Actually, for this next year, I think I need to make around four to seven per show in order to be profitable. And then I think this is pretty universal, no matter what you do. I think on an art fair, an artist needs to make around $100,000 to be sustainable. I don't think you can quit your day job without doing $100,000.

Patrick Shanahan: Got it. And so a good show is four to seven, and then like a home run, like 10 to 15 to 20, somewhere in that range.

Mays Mayhew: Yeah, now my husband pays the mortgage, so I'm lucky for that. But also, people in the booth—that's also a good indicator for me. And then the people on the mailing list. So I have about—and I have this number too because I actually have a clicker. I have between 200 and 1,500 people in my booth on a weekend. That's like a banging show is like foot traffic of 200 to 1,500. Is that two days or is that one day?

Patrick Shanahan: Three days.

Mays Mayhew: So Columbus was actually—Columbus was 1,600 people inside my booth. So I don't count anyone who doesn't cross the threshold. And then you have the clicker. You're literally like the clicker, like there's someone at the ball game, and you just have it down there low, and you're just like bing, bing, bing. That's amazing. I need to know which one you used because everyone would probably buy it because also, it's like you have a lot of downtime in those art fairs too. It's like there's 20 people in the booth, and then there's zero.

Mays Mayhew: Yeah, so anyways, I take pretty good notes. So yes, so if I have a lot of people in the art fair booth, and I get a good number for my mailing list—as I have the QR code, people sign up for the mailing list. If I have 50 or above people on my mailing list, I know that people are really interested. Is that like 50 per show?

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, got it. Got it. Out of the 1,600, you usually get let's just say 15 out of the 200 to 1,500, depending on how the swing is. Like, I actually want to break down some of those numbers and get a conversion rate and then memorialize that. So every show you have, do you have total number of emails in a spreadsheet somewhere and total number of—okay, if you get me that data, I will start crunching it. This, by the way, this is also where we need your husband. Do you know how good AI is at crunching these numbers? You could throw the whole spreadsheet in there and be like, "What is my conversion rate?" Because it's one of the things that I would love to work on with you is how we can increase that conversion rate to yeah, the 80%. Because anybody that does shows, you know more than ever, you don't want to do that your entire life as you age. You want the business to start picking up online so you can take a couple of shows off here or there, right? Because they're so exhausting.

Mays Mayhew: Oh yeah, the kids go to college. Mine are nine and 10 right now, so I've got eight years left. And then once like 58, he'll be 60 by then. So yeah, but that's why you got to keep healthy.

Patrick Shanahan: 100%. That's why you got to keep healthy. So we definitely need to get that number up because let's just say it's a busy—I imagine the 50 probably more closely correlates or is 50 like the average? 50 emails per show?

Mays Mayhew: 50 is the average, but I do have to say, Patrick, I don't let people sign up if you're under the age of 25. Don't waste my time. Like, I stop—stop. You know how long you're going to be in this business for the rest of your life? That 25-year-old is gonna be 50 by the time we blink. The reason why I do that is because a lot of people come in the booth, and they just want to—they're just like, even homeless. Like, people ask me like, "Oh, can I have this painting? This free painting." And I don't have an email. I'm like, "You don't have an email? How am I going to market to you?" So yeah, and that's always the case, right? Like, in any world, there's a sampling of society. But don't do that. They're only 25, and they're broke because let me tell you, that person eventually is going to move out of their mother's basement, and they're going to need art, and I want you to be top of mind. And also, this is going to sound callous the way that I say this, but you're running a business, and I don't want to look at human beings as numbers, right? And I don't, but there are certain jobs to be done in your art business. Okay, yeah, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater in the sense that you think the only job to be done is that they purchase a piece of art from you. Yeah, just as valuable could be liking your post on social media. Just as valuable could be telling their friends. Just as valuable could be telling their interior decorator friend. And you don't ever know who's gonna be who. Absolutely, you're right, Patrick. Yeah, you gotta—you definitely gotta—you have to fix that one. And I understand the argument that says there's an incremental cost to them being on an email list. I get that, but I think that cost is like, especially with AI, is going to go down to zero so fast. All these costs are dropping out of control. You just never know. They all—there's different jobs to be done of your audience, right? There are certain people that are never going to sign up for Art Store Friends that download every one of these podcast episodes and share with everyone, and I love them for it because that's huge. I'm trying to grow the podcast, right? So yeah, you have to think about it like that. You're right. You're right. Yes, so side task—and I literally want you to—I want the spreadsheets of all of the shows where you have the number clicker and number of emails captured, and then it should just be name of the show, date, name of the show, date, foot traffic, emails, conversion rate, right? Because what we want to do is figure out which show you did better than others, and you should walk out of everyone with a conversion rate. And I'm very interested to see what kind of techniques and tactics—and you're already really good at this. You were one of the first ones I saw, and I should go and pull a—I should go and pull a photo of it, but you have the—put the business card fishbowl idea with "Vote for which one you like best," right? That one. And the easy mental takeaway for her—she does it with two pieces of art, like which one do you want to win, but it's like when there's a tip jar at the coffee shop, and it's like Star Wars or Star Trek, and you put your vote in on either side because it's like such a contentious issue. That was fun. I want to point—you asked me how do I judge an art fair that's good or bad? Yeah, and you just reminded me that one of the fairs I did—it was in Spring Green, Wisconsin. It was right outside of Madison, and a lot of craft was there, which I am not craft. Yeah, I got—I think five of my best collectors from that show, and I did an average show. So I want to go back to there because those good clients came from that show. Also, if I get a lot of after-show traffic—and then you're so—you're talking about conversion rate. A lot of my customers will come back to me two, three years. I know, I know, Mays. We have people that sign up for Art Store Friends seven years after first subscribing to the podcast or getting on. You don't know when it's going to happen, right? You never know what it's going to happen. Your value proposition is just be awesome. Keep creating art and gather as many people as possible because you never know. Never know like what opens the door or not. Okay, out of the 20 shows that you do—just back at the napkin—I'm curious about this too. Which ones do you lose money on? Which ones do you break even on? And which ones do you make money on? Or what are those percentages? I'd be curious about that.

Mays Mayhew: Okay, so in the 15 years that I've been doing shows, about the first 20—about 20 are really good, 10 are break-even, and then 10 or lose money. But you're always going to lose money, even at the good shows, because of weather or you don't know what's going to happen. Just here's a funny story. Des Moines two years ago was my best show. They do a really great show—great job of pre-selling everybody. And so I had people come in, and they bought big paintings like this right away in the first two hours, and so it was a really great show. Wow. The next year—funny story. Okay, so I also garden, and I was trying to get my kids to try peas and everything like that. So we do a—we are homeschoolers, so we do history. We go to history museums, and so we—on the way to the Des Moines art fair, we went to a history museum on Black Hawk—Chief Black Hawk. And I saw some plants outside, and I thought, "Oh, this is great. This looks just like an edamame." So I ate it. 30 minutes later, I'm puking my guts out. Oh my God, on the way to Des Moines. Okay, puking my guts out. I'm in it—just puking and puking and puking. Anyway, so we get to the—what was it? Oh my gosh, it was indigo. It was not edamame. Yeah, wow. Indigo. So I got food poisoning teaching my kids how to—and so I'm feeling so sick. I see someone I know. They help my husband and my kids, who at that time were nine and eight, put up the tent. Wow. And so in Des Moines, I'm feeling so bad, and then a friend of mine died. So I'm like—so my best show that I did—my best show ever was the year before, and then that show, I like broke even. Like, you never know if your best show is going to be this year. Something's going to happen—like weird. You get food poisoning, but your friend dies, or someone dies, or the weather too. Or the weather. You never ever know. So I do have a running average of over five years, and so that is the number that I look at to gauge what my best show is. Yeah, and I don't look at my sales. I look at my profit.

Patrick Shanahan: Good. Smart. What size is the email list up to now, then?

Mays Mayhew: So it's around—it fluctuates between 2,000 and 2,500 because I do the free mailing list. I get 2,000 people will sign up in the summer, and 2,000 people will drop off. So it's almost like I get a brand new 2,000 every summer.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, and that's part in partial of how things go with email too. Like, it's why it's so important to be on the channel because there's a lot of people that will stay following you on Instagram, but they just don't want email, period. And that's why you have to be able to have those different channels hitting at all times. And as I do is I look at—as I look to your Instagram at 5,000 followers, we've got to—we've got to get this growing. And I made a note. I'm like, "How are we going to—how are we going to get this jumping?" And I'm gonna give you one follower right there. So now there's one. Mays, one follower at a time. That's how we build them.

Mays Mayhew: Can I tell you this is not good news, but I used to be at 7,000. Used to be at 7,000.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, so every day, I lose one to two people. We do probably a lot of them are fake followers too, which is just a nature of the beast in this business. Yeah, but I do wonder if—just thinking out loud—knowing Instagram is as important as it is, it's not changing anytime soon. Like, how could you incentivize the folks that go by your booth to follow you on Instagram? And how—what might that look like? Like, so—and this number—that number, that 5,000, it will go up because everyone, especially my next show in two weeks, I'll have a little Instagram QR code, and everyone will follow me. So it'll probably go up in the next month.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, which is so important. And by the way, look at this one—makes me laugh. Pck told me that I got to start it over. I got to start it over, May. And my friend Patrick told me that I need to show more of my art that more in my life that's not art. Is that even possible today? My kids got me out of the studio. We got some ice cream at the store, and I am just here watching them do something cool. So guys, do something cool. Need more of it. Need more of it, Mays. Need more of it. It's so important. Mays is calling me out on that because I want all of you guys more often to share more than just your art on your Instagram page, right? And Mays has been doing a much better job of it. And if you go far enough down on her page—and for anyone that's listening to this after the fact—her Instagram will be linked up in the show notes, so you can just click and follow that way. Some of these story shots of the family road trip—like, everyone just loaded up in the van, ready to go, ready to party. And that's what's so cool is the memories you're making. Doing that, Mays, I know it's hard, but road trips are like such great memories. There's just the amount of places that you would never in a million years fly to or experience.

Mays Mayhew: Oh yeah, it can only happen on a road trip. Like, I did my first big one with my kids this summer. We drove from California to Montana. How are your kids? Mine are seven and nine.

Patrick Shanahan: Oh, okay. Yeah, so we've been traveling since three. They were three and four. Yeah, so yours are like veterans of the highest order. And you do it without screens, which, you know, most parents do not fall into the camp. Myself included. But yeah, talking to you in the past, shifting out of the show stuff, your biggest struggle has not been doing great at the shows and not making the income on the shows, but translating the business to online. That's when your biggest struggle.

Mays Mayhew: Oh yeah, absolutely. That's why I wanted to talk to you afterwards because your six months, you're in front of customers. You see—I see a thousand people a weekend. That's—you can't replace it. But during the non-show season, how do I translate that? And I'll get—I don't know—maybe 10 sales a month, which is not good.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, so you're at 10 sales a month when it's non-show season now, and that's probably mostly folks that have purchased from you from before.

Mays Mayhew: 100%. Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Shanahan: So we got to work on a strategy to start opening up some new markets and some new accounts for you. It's wild either just looking in your space because I know you're probably not in a retail area, but it feels like you're in an art gallery already.

Mays Mayhew: Oh yeah, I've got a pretty—this is it. This is, and then I have a wood shop upstairs. So I've got about a garage and the—I've got garage and the 2,000 feet.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, that's like bigger than my house. And you have this all for your art studio and a wood shop upstairs. I'm mega envious of that. But you said too that you're opening up the gallery aspect of your business as well. Talk to me about that. You've got some work in some galleries.

Mays Mayhew: I do, but it's not—it's more of a credibility play than selling. I have sold before. I started doing art fairs full-time. I was in art galleries 100%. I've been in art galleries since I was probably—I don't know—15 years old. And just the percentage is too high, and you never know if they are going to highlight you. They've got a lot of artists in the stable. And I've even had some art coaches that were gallery-specific. And every year, I do gallery proposals and try to get into museums because I need that credibility. My clients ask me for it. Actually, "When are you gonna get—when are you gonna get a museum show?" Yeah, and the rejections that I've had in the last couple of years is I'm not—I'm not current enough. So I'm not in the cultural play. My work is not political. Like, they're really in that. So I'm just not doing that.

Patrick Shanahan: Actually, yeah, just blow it off. Your strategy shifts to higher price points. I can see how it is just a straight credibility play. Yeah, the dirty little secret is that like 99.999999999% of art never appreciates in the slightest, but everyone in their mind still thinks that's a thing. Can I get the up-and-comer? So much of it is image too. But you don't even—do you have on your gallery names in your Instagram profile? I don't see it. You should probably have that street cred going.

Mays Mayhew: No, because we're ending those relationships. So you're just pulling out of them. You're like, yeah.

Patrick Shanahan: And Patrick, I gotta say, it's really hard to do the pricing. Like, the pricing with—they want the same exact—galleries need the same price that you charge, but they're going to take 50%.

Mays Mayhew: Yeah, and so my prices are not high enough yet for that to happen. Yes, yeah. It's hard. I've had gallery owners tell me that they're like, "Once your prices get high to be like around 10 and 5, then we can talk."

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, yeah. It's everyone's—everyone is sold on the dream. Oh, get into a gallery. Don't get me wrong, there's galleries all over the place and all that operate under a different set of rules, but it's really hard. And they only want you if you're successful. So you can't be someone that says, "I'm just getting started. I'm going right into the galleries." If they don't see some level of success—either a huge email list or some big social media presence or you're written up famously somewhere—they're going to be like, "No, I've got a bunch of artists that have that already. Why would I need you?" It's counterproductive. But I think we need to get more aggressive on the email capture, and we need to get more aggressive on the Instagram growth. How often are you emailing me? Are you emailing once a month? Are you emailing once a week? What are we doing?

Mays Mayhew: Once a week, and then this month, we'll do twice a week.

Patrick Shanahan: Good for you. I love it. And then Instagram and Facebook are once a day, and some days twice a day because co—I have co-pilot. So I post once a day, and then when co-pilot posts, it's two a day.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, which is great. So doubling up on it. I do think broadly still more family stuff into the hopper because when you look at it, it is mostly just Mays art, just Mays art, just Mays art. Occasional family in here. So I will keep banging that drum and never stop banging that drum. I also think you should start incorporating some more carousels in there whenever you can. Carousels are like under the radar right now, but I'll tell you, like the Art Storefronts account, we're growing that thing at 2,500 to 5,000 followers a week, and our carousels are getting more reach than the reels. Wow, which is wild. And I can talk about some software offline that'll that'll show you that like really aids in the process of like auto-generating and auto-creating. But I think you have also a huge leg up in the sense that your husband is very well-versed in AI and knows it well. Like, I'm very much moving into a world—and when I say AI, yeah, Art Hel are awesome, but any of them. Right, there's two kinds of people. There is literally a fork in the road right now, and I say that all the time. And it's going to be the ones that learn how to leverage AI as a second brain and as an assistant and as a helper and everyone else versus everyone else because your output, your productivity, is just going to keep going boom, boom, boom, leveling up. And all you have to do is start trying. Yeah, like my greatest piece of advice—and I'm so far down the rabbit hole on it, it's crazy. I'm using it for everything. It's changing every workflow that we do. And it's not hyperbole or buzz. It's like I said this on the episode last week—everything that you do, Mays, all the shows that you do, all the social media posts, all the emails, all the text messages, all the conversations, yes, all the art you create—all of it is just the Mays Mayhew factory, and the assembly line goes rolling out. And all of those things that you do go on the assembly line, and what is at the end of it is Mays's GDP—her gross domestic product—the sum total of the goods and services and everything that she's done. And my position is that AI, wherever it fits in, not only makes those products better, but it allows you to create more than you would have otherwise. Right? And people are like, "I'm not going to put out this crappy this, that, and the other AI content in quality." And that's shortsighted from people that have not used it. It will—you know what my husband always says? He says, "You don't know how to ask or talk to AI." Yes, he'll say that's the number one problem. So you have to ask. You can't ask them, "Analyze my business." But you can ask them, "Analyze my business." You say, "I am this person. This is who I'm going to talk to." And you have to learn how to talk to it. And once you learn how to talk to AI, then you can be really productive. I actually use AI—whether it's Art Hel or ChatGPT—every day. Yeah, and I'm banging the drum for more and more artists to start embracing it and start including it in their workflow because we can take your spreadsheets, and I can say, "I can upload that whole entire data set in there, and we can chat with that data set." You know, you can tell the LLM, "Break down all the shows I've done in the last five years and tell me which ones are the best in terms of conversion rate to email list. Break down the shows in the last five years and tell me which one had my highest AOV. I did in the last five years and show me which ones I did I sell my most expensive pieces. Right, based on all the data that you have from me going to all of these shows over the last years, what shows do you think have the highest ROI, and that I should book next year versus I shouldn't this year?" Your frame of mind into a scenario where you realize you can do this stuff—I find is not easy. And we're at a total—we're at a total leveled playing field. So which one do you use?

Mays Mayhew: I use them all. I literally use them all. Have a favorite? It changes every two weeks. It changes every two weeks. And what I realize at a macro is that the fundamental skill set to have right now—you already said it—it's prompting. It's understanding how to talk to the AI. And the beautiful thing about it is you don't need to take a course. You don't need to follow some internet guru. You need reps and sets. All you need is a curiosity and start practicing and start asking the questions. And it's what I find is it's—how could I explain it? It's if you wanted to be a chef, right? Learn knife skills. What cuisine of food should I go into? Learn knife skills and learn sauces, right? And learn how to cook a piece of meat because whatever the cuisine, that's going to be the biggest one. You're going to have that skill set, right? And that's what it is with AI. Learn how to talk to the AI and get the reps and sets in and be willing to give it a shot and come back. I'm to the point where probably this morning, I've already put 50 screenshots into AI and said, "Fix this. Let me fix this. Where am I wrong on this? What's going on with this? What's a way to deal with this?" And you just let it—you let it look at the screenshot. Chat does it? Grok does it? Claude does it? Art Hel does it? Do ill do it? No, we need—we include that in our hill. But anyway, help me explain what's going on here. Right, give me some insights about this. Like, how can I fix this? Right, help me sort this problem. And all of that is just—it's phenomenal. You're already doing these posts, and it just sounds so AI. I totally get that. You got to change it, so change it. Yeah, so what I did yesterday because I uploaded—I think 20 new pieces of artwork. I put it in Art Hel. It gives a product description automatically. Okay, and if you guys—I maybe missed it, but perhaps you've told your people already—you can download all of your products in Art Storefronts into an Excel spreadsheet. Yeah, okay. So I'll put the photo in Art Storefronts, and then once the photos are there and the title is there, I will then open up my spreadsheet—my Excel spreadsheet—and then I'll open up Art Hel, download the picture in Art Hel, and then I'll hit product description, and then I'll say, "Titled 'Gratitude.' This piece is about giving thanks to those who helped you." And you almost write the description, and then AI or the Art Hel will massage it and make sure the grammar is right. And then you tell that's not right or I want to talk about that. You can't just—like you said, you can't just prompt it. You can't be lazy. Yes, 100%. 100%. But I would even go as far to say like embrace momentum. Momentum is one of the most powerful things you could possibly have as an artist, as a human being, period. And what do I mean by that? I have 50 images. You get the 50 images. You process all 50. They now all have a title. They now all have a description. Are they perfect? No, but go, "Oh my gosh, all 50 are done. All 50 are done." Then decide which ones you want to go back and work on, right? To tune up a little bit, to make a little bit better, to maybe redo. And then all 50 are still done, but now 10 out of the 50 are perfect, right? And then come to the next ones. And it's like understanding that you can do that for every aspect of what you're doing is just so powerful, right? The AI will hit it out of the park sometimes. It'll hallucinate, but it's if you use it to just build your momentum and get out of the blank page zone and get out of like—if I had an image folder of 50 images, and I had to title it and give it descriptions on my own, and I'm a writer, that would be like on my to-do list for a year. Yeah, a lot easier to do it for sure. For sure. Okay, so we need to work on your Instagram game. We need to work on your email list. You're going to start capturing emails no matter who they are—whether they're 25-year-old kids, whether they look homeless, whoever they are—because it'll just come out on balance, right? We do need a strategy for you on how we are going to make better use of the time when show season is not in season. Okay, yeah. You could do some pretty incredible broadcast, by the way—live broadcast—and what you have going on just inside of your studio, which is insane. So this is an asset that you have that's like tremendous that we probably need to work on.

Mays Mayhew: I do. I do a lot of work in progress. Yeah, if you looked at my Instagram, you'd see me creating artwork. Yeah, on a regular basis in there.

Patrick Shanahan: And I see you holding up some of the pieces, which is great too. I think in terms of the Instagram strategy, definitely want to see a little bit more family stuff. I want to see you start incorporating some carousels in there. Some live broadcasts in your studio would be incredible. And I do see you're definitely doing it. How do I add this to this? So you're talking about a lot of stuff like this, right? People got to be so envious. You have this size office. Oh, that's my son. He did it. Oh, that's the best. So then he narrates it. That actually that one was pretty good. That one for me—this really good. Yeah, 2, I think, views. Yeah, and he's narrating and showing the whole thing off. But on balance, Mays, like you're like—what do you think you sold total art in the whole time you've been at this? Are you knocking on the million-dollar door? Are you over $500,000? You gotta be over $500,000 at least.

Mays Mayhew: That's a hard number, Patrick. My goal this year is I got to make $100,000. That's like my goal. So probably over $500,000. Maybe more. I've been selling art since I was eight years old.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, yeah, but still, that's a milestone, right? That puts you in the top 1% of artists that have actually been able to create a product out of thin air—i.e., art—and sell over half a million dollars of it. Yeah, so it's—you get lost in like the minutia of, "Man, I need to be doing more. I need to get this thing to $250,000, $350,000." But you realize you're on a slow climb, right? And the fact that you're already at that rate is a big deal. But I do think there's nothing—there's no easy or better way to sell it in person, face-to-face. You validated that times a thousand. Yeah, really, what is the next question? And part of me thinks, look, you already know the torture of retail. You've already done it. Is there somewhere close to where you live where a retail gallery is a possibility if you owned it? It would probably have to be in Chicago or maybe a neighboring town or where I am—I'm in Aurora, which is like known for being not a nice area, even though it's getting up there. Even though it was in Wayne's World. Yes, yes, right. Maybe not. I homeschool, so that—so it would be very hard for you to do it on a day-to-day already working like we wake up—to anyone who wants to know the schedule—maybe you don't, but like we—I wake up at 5, we go for—we exercise for an hour as a family, we do homeschool until I'm with them till 11, and then from 11 to 7 or 11 to 9, I'm in the studio. It's already a long day because since I'm not a photographer, it takes a lot of time to create these.

Patrick Shanahan: For sure, for sure. And I don't think like the thunder part of it—and by the way, do you know what else is great at this? AI. Like, my business this year will hit $100,000 in revenue. Here are the primary revenue sources and what that breakdown looks like. Here are the things that I'm exploring to turn it into a $200,000 business this year. Yeah, can you help me think through that and what the results would be? Right, yeah. And you start doing thought exercises like that, and you're like, "Whoa." It makes my mind spin because one of the things that I realized too—continue to realize—is there's not one way that works for everybody. Everybody kind of just has to do you and do what works for you. And Brett on here on Instagram is commenting like, "How is the merch in the lower price point items contributing to your overall customer acquisition? Do you feel like since adding some of those cheaper items that you are acquiring a significantly higher number of customers than you were previously?" Zero because I cannot have merch at the shows I'm at. So high-end shows allow it. You cannot have it. However, if you went to my website—and I just did this actually a month ago—if you went to the website, you'll notice there's a gift shop. Yeah, I saw that during my prep. I was like, "Oh, wow, she's got—you have the whole like menu item for it." Yeah, so what I'm gonna do in two weeks—I'm going to the other art fair. It's a very high-end show. You got—you got to fix this when you get off. If I click shop, I think I changed the URL actually recently. We got—we got to fix that. It's gonna look a little bit weird. It's going to do the mobile, but yeah, you've got the gift shop. Just go to the gift shop. Yeah, I want to print out a catalog. All right, I want AI or ASF to help me pick out a print out a catalog and then give it to all my high-net-worth individuals so that they can buy the pillows and they can buy the acrylic trays and all that stuff like directly because those are all gift items. For sure, and these pillows are rad. Yeah, thanks. I've actually never sold one, but I've had them—I've had them with me at shows for a while. This gift shop is brand new. I just created this about a month ago.

Patrick Shanahan: Got it, got it, got it. Yeah, you got some stuff in here. So I think that's like a really important thing, and the rub of it—the rub of it is the number of new customers you acquired per year is directly like one of the most directly representative numbers you can have the future revenue of the business because in order to have a collector, you have to get a first purchase, right? And so a huge argument for the merch and for the cheaper price points is how many customers you can acquire. And it's everyone's, "Oh, merch, what am I going to make? Five bucks?" No, don't be shortsighted. The $5 has nothing to do with it. You could break even. You acquired a customer, right? You acquired a customer. Yeah, people on here like, "Cool pillows." That's what I said. Like, my wife would buy some of those pillows and throw them on a couch. So I do feel like you, if you had those things properly merchandised and started showing them off, they're going to start selling. Those are too fashionable with the way that your art style is. Like, that could go on any modern couch and look awesome and be fun decoration, especially you've got the gold thing going on. So we have some opportunities to work on. Let me ask this because I want to be sensitive to your time on how hard you work, and we're coming up—we're over an hour. If there's one thing that we can improve about Art Storefronts, one thing only, what would it be?

Mays Mayhew: Make the back end of Art Storefronts more user-friendly. Okay, because when you have people like me—I sell 350 paintings a year. Yeah, I had to put 350 paintings on. I had to take them off to put them on, and the back end is not friendly.

Patrick Shanahan: Okay, we need to fix that for certain. Yeah, I want all of your guys' data on the back end to be databased and then have an LLM instance where you can just talk to it. That's a feature for everybody. It's a feature for everyone where you're going to talk to your data—whether it's personal life data, it's everyone's future or business data—not spreadsheets, not charts, not graphs, although you could generate those, but just talk to it. Right, like, "How many customers do I have in Iowa?" And then you know what you can do? Send everyone that I have in Iowa a postcard that lets them know I'm going to be at the show on such-and-such weekend. Right? Yes, we do need to get some of that going on. But the fact that your husband is an AI can make that happen. Guys, in the show notes, is going to be all the links to all the things. Will somebody go and buy a pillow from Mays because she needs to get this going on? Okay, we need to up her customer account. Great interview though. I feel like we need to do a follow-up on just show stuff or like you need to teach a class on shows, Mays. This for like—really, you need to. So we've got to get that going on. But on that note, everybody, thanks for listening. Appreciate the time, Mays. Appreciate the time. Everything will be in the show notes after the fact wherever you see this. This was just a live broadcast. We get the podcast edited, and then there will be links for all of the things. If you want to follow, we have an Instagram account just for the podcast so we can share way more podcast-related clips and content. That's Art Marketing Podcast, all one word—Art Marketing Podcast on Instagram. So you can certainly follow that. I know some of you guys are watching on that stream already. Shout out to you guys, and thanks everybody for watching. Have a great rest of your day.