Our Top 6 Takeaways from the just released Art Market 2021 Report

Join us for an insightful conversation with talented photographer John Kennington, who shares his journey of transitioning to full-time photography and the art of selling at shows. With over 50 years of experience, John discusses his strategies for capturing customer emails, the importance of storytelling in his work, and how he balances online sales with in-person events. Discover the challenges and rewards of being a "road warrior" in the art world, and learn valuable tips for aspiring photographers looking to make their mark. Tune in for a wealth of knowledge and inspiration!

Podcast Transcribe

John Kennington: I get anywhere from 20 to 100 emails per show. Wow, so what I do is when I make a sale, I have a little sales form with Y. There it is. I've always had a website, but it was not that great in the past, and I've rarely had a website sale. I just had it more for reference so people could look at my stuff. But I wanted to really up that and really develop my online business. I opted, I went with you guys, and it was a really fantastic decision. There's not one path that everyone needs to take. It's however you get it working, keep it working, keep it going. But you never know, you tell you never know who's a customer. I've had people that I thought were just bugging me, and I wish they'd leave, and then they end up buying something. So for sure, try to be polite to everybody because you just don't know. You never know. It's all just about reps and sets.

Patrick Shanahan: All right, guys, Patrick from Art Storefronts back with another customer interview. This time, I have the photographer John Kennington coming to me directly from his home in... where do you live, John?

John Kennington: Bixby, Oklahoma, which is Tulsa.

Patrick Shanahan: Nice, in the Tulsa area. Fired up to have this interview. I've been looking forward to it because you are what I love calling the road warrior, the road and show warrior, a guy that's doing a ton of road and show events on a yearly basis. So I want to get into that and peel back some of the layers and get into some of your tradecraft. Sure, but before that, give us the origin story. How long have you been a photographer? Are you a full-time photographer? What does that whole landscape look like?

John Kennington: Yeah, I am full-time. I've been taking pictures for over 50 years now, started in high school. My parents bought me a camera, paid for my film, I was able to do that, and I've been taking pictures ever since. I started selling my work about 15 years ago at art shows, and for the last 15 years, I've been doing pretty much a full-time art show schedule. Up until about three years ago, I did have another regular job. Luckily, I worked from home remotely, so I was able to be on the road a little more than having to actually be in an office. So I could do a show in Colorado, log in from Colorado, and get some work done. But it still limited me. That job ended about three years ago, so I am now just completely full-time doing art shows.

Patrick Shanahan: Amazing. I love that. And starting in the film days, I assume you're all digital these days?

John Kennington: Oh yeah, definitely all digital. I did the darkroom stuff and all, but I don't miss it a bit. No, and anyone that tells you that they do is lying because that was a lot of work.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, I did some of that back in the day as well. Awesome. I want to start literally right in on the fairs and shows because it's a great way to go about it. Over the last three years since you've been full-time, how many a year are you doing exactly?

John Kennington: I do about 25, 26, 27 shows a year. Wow. I'm trying to scale back a little bit this next year, maybe get down to 20. I'm cutting out some of the less profitable ones. What I used to think was a really profitable show five, ten years ago, I wouldn't even think about doing nowadays.

Patrick Shanahan: Wow, that's amazing. And how far from... so you're pretty much just centrally located in the United States. How out to the concentric circles go of the area that you cover?

John Kennington: I've done some shows in Colorado, several in Texas. Texas is a really big good market. The last several years, I've done a couple down in Florida. I'll string two or three together in Florida and do that. I've got a couple of East Coast shows I do. In fact, over Memorial Day and this coming Labor Day, I'm doing a show out on Long Island in the Hamptons. Wow. And I grew up in New Jersey, and I've got one show that I do most years in New Jersey, gives me an excuse to go back home too.

Patrick Shanahan: Love that. I've got a really great show in Columbus, Ohio, I do every year now, and in other words, Nebraska, Kansas, so those are the areas I typically go to.

Patrick Shanahan: Amazing. Now, one of the arguments that I've always made with how to grow an art, how to grow a photography business is like you can either be a road show warrior or you can sell direct and build your own business. The odds are much better at making it that way than trying to get into galleries right and have a profitable business that way. That's at least the landscape that I've seen. But what I'm really curious about is out of those 20, 25, 30 shows that you do a year, are you profitable at every single solitary one of them, or is it hit or miss?

John Kennington: No, I'm profitable. I think last year I may have had one show where I may not quite have broken even. It was a newer show, a show I hadn't done before, and I probably made my booth fee back, but I probably didn't cover all of my travel expenses.

Patrick Shanahan: Got it. And that's a show I will not be going back to.

John Kennington: Yeah, and sometimes that's just how you learn. And of course, you're subject to the weather. You just never know. I know the show just this past weekend, there's a show in Rockport, Texas, on Fourth of July weekend. I did not do that one this year, but I've done it in the past, and they canceled Sunday because of Hurricane Barrel. Yeah, so there you go. They made it a one-day show on Saturday, but if I had been doing it, I would not even have gone for Saturday. Yeah, you would have lost money, but that's just the risk you take with outdoor art shows.

Patrick Shanahan: Oh, 100%. And it's hard. It's hard on the body, it's miles on the car, it's time away from family, so it's not an easy way to do it. But I'd be curious to get your advice. Let's say an up-and-coming artist photographer wants to do a show right and go through the work of saying okay, this is going to be my collection, these are going to be my pieces, I'm figuring out my price points, and I'm actually going to sit in a booth and have real conversations with real people as opposed to just on the website, just social media marketing. What would be your recommendation on how many a first-time artist or photographer needs to do in a year to break you in to solve for that weather? Are you booking three, are you booking five, are you booking ten when you're first starting out?

John Kennington: As you talk about, you're going to be doing the smaller shows or even markets where you've got less overhead, less expense. The shows I'm doing, I have a double booth, so I'm typically paying anywhere from $800 to $1,200 just for my booth fee. That's just the fee. Whereas a market or farmers market or a small little community show, you may have a $100 investment. When you're doing those shows, those are easier to do obviously. And I would say at least five or six shows a year to at least factor out those other variables that you can't control.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, I love that. And again, like I learned this in my career really early when I got into a trade show as an earlier business, I had a clothing company, and this sweet-talking gal, she was so good, she got me to advertise in this magazine, and I think we broke even on it. We got a ton of press on it, but it wasn't anywhere near what it was. And what I learned is like back then, if you were going to advertise in a magazine, you couldn't just do one edition, you had to do three or four, five editions to be able to build up enough momentum, get enough eyeballs to actually pay the whole thing off. And I feel like that translates directly to shows too because everyone's terrified, they're scared to death of doing it, they're like oh, this is such a commitment, and then they limp into one, and they don't get the great results a lot of times because they don't know what they're doing, but they don't get the great results, and then they quit. And it's like, no, if you would have just committed to three or four or five, you would be wildly profitable. So I love that you're doing them. Do you feel like year after year you are seeing the growth in your digital business, your direct website sale business, as a result of the shows? Is it building momentum in the business?

John Kennington: Yes, and that's the reason I actually... I've been with ASF now, I think about three years, and I've always had a website, but it was not that great in the past, and I rarely had a website sale. I just had it more for reference so people could look at my stuff. But I wanted to really up that and really develop my online business. I opted, I went with you guys, and really fantastic decision because I've got as professional a website as you could possibly hope for, and I'm on Co-Pilot and all, so I'm getting the marketing emails going out for me. And now, I do have some online sales to strangers, but most of my sales have been people who've seen me at shows. Of course, I just had our Fourth of July sale two days ago, it ended, and I had a $1,400 sale from somebody who saw me at a show in Oklahoma City.

Patrick Shanahan: Amazing. And they bought a piece that they didn't swing for it back at the show, but that marketing email for the Fourth of July sale pushed them over the edge, and they made the purchase. How did you find us, and what brought you to us originally?

John Kennington: I guess I was Googling some of the different photography website hosting companies, and yours came up. And I also had a photographer friend who was with you guys, who I really... he's a good friend of mine, and so I asked him about it, and he highly recommended you guys too. So very happy with what he was doing for him.

Patrick Shanahan: It's the marketer in me, I always have to get down to attribution. Try to find it. Was it I found you on the web and also word of mouth?

John Kennington: Yeah, which is amazing.

Patrick Shanahan: I know that the rules of every show are a little bit different, but I'm curious what has been your approach to email capture at each individual show. What is a general average of emails that you're capturing per show, and what does that landscape look like?

John Kennington: I probably get anywhere from 20 to 100 emails per show. Wow. So what I do is when I make a sale, I have a little sales form with Y. There it is. You can just... if you're just starting out, you can buy a book of these at Home Depot, Office Depot, you don't need a custom one, but I ended up doing some custom ones. Okay. And I write down their order, and I'll get their... if it's going to be something I have to ship to them, I get their name and address and all, but the second line on here is name, second line is email. So whenever somebody buys something from me, I ask, would you like to be on my email list? And probably 80% of people are more than happy to give me their email after they bought something. But a few people said they don't, and that's fine. But I say, hey, I do an email a few times a month with my new stuff, if you're interested. And 80, 85% I'd say people give me their email. I also have... in the past, I've had a signup sheet for people to sign up to give me their email to be on my email list, and I would get anywhere from a dozen to 30, 40 names on that email list who didn't purchase but wanted to get on my list. But about a year ago, based on stuff that we talked about, I added QR codes, and I actually... I've got this here too. So I have this plastered all over my booth. Amazing. When a free print, sign up for my VIP email list. And if it's a big show, the last show in Columbus I did, I had about 50 people who signed up with the QR code. Wow. And I captured their emails. People don't realize, like COVID hit, and everyone understands what a QR code is now, young and old. Everyone knows, okay, I hold my phone up to that thing. Because when I went back to restaurants, every menu, I was like, where's the menu? And they're like, it's on the table. It's great. Yep. And I still have my signup sheet for those who don't want to do that, and I'll still get some of both. But this is great because that's 50 emails I don't have to type in, and probably 50% of them I have trouble reading, and I probably type them in incorrectly.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, no kidding. And because the incentive is there, they're entered in to win something. You have the opportunity to win after the fact. Now, are you running sales for all of those folks after the fact after you announce the print winner?

John Kennington: That I haven't done. They get obviously the 20% coupon when they sign up, so that's the only sale that I'm offering them is the initial 20% sign-up.

Patrick Shanahan: Got it. Yeah, which is still a good incentive.

John Kennington: Oh, absolutely. It's a great incentive, and the free print, both of those things just make a big difference.

Patrick Shanahan: What do you feel like the sales activity is after the show with that technique? And we've seen a 5% lift, a 10% lift, hit or miss?

John Kennington: It's hit or miss. It's maybe 5% if I had to put a percentage on it. It's not huge, but I'm capturing those names, and I'm really going after the... I'm hoping for the big sale because I don't get a whole lot of small sales, but I'm really going for the big sale. And this person ordered a $1,400 metal print again just last couple of days ago, yeah, which is great. And they used the coupon code from the Fourth of July sale to purchase it. So that's really what I'm shooting for, although I'll take obviously any sale I get, but yeah, big ones, those big follow-ups have been really what's made a big difference.

Patrick Shanahan: Tremendous. And I audited your website stats, and you're still doing really well on your website sales, especially in terms of sales volume. And I won't throw the number out there unless you want to. The more I'm in this business and the more that I get to meet more of you guys and look at the data and everything else, we have some artists that do so well at the shows and theirs and cannot translate it into online sales at all, and I'm perplexed by it. But you, I feel like you're on a really good trajectory where nobody wants to do the shows and theirs at your clip for the rest of their lives. Okay, it's hard on the body, hard on the car, but as long as the online sales are continuing to ladder up throughout each year that you're doing that, you're going to be left with a sizable six-figure-a-year business without having to do all the shows. You're going to be able to go down to three to five a year in a number of years. And I wonder if that's entered into your planning, into your thinking, or do you just really enjoy doing them and talking to the people and being gregarious?

John Kennington: I do enjoy them, but that definitely has been in our thinking. My wife and I discuss it, and we hope that I can cut back to just some of the most significant shows each year and make up the difference on online sales. So I'm glad that you've looked at my website because it's hard for me. I haven't looked actually really closely at it even this year. I know I get the sales in occasionally, but I'm glad to hear what you had to say about it.

Patrick Shanahan: That's great. Yeah, you're at a healthy number. I'm going to... one person on Instagram asked a question, you're a great person to answer, so I'll put it up. Is there a good resource for how to go about your first show or booth, some guidance on the necessities of getting started?

John Kennington: Messy, yeah. There's a... are we just have ASF people, or we have other people out?

Patrick Shanahan: No, we have other people.

John Kennington: Yeah, okay. Yeah, there's a really good... I mean, if you're in ASF, I had a couple of weeks ago, about a month or so ago, I had posted a link on Small Wins about that and some links to some places, some other information to get started. But there's a really good book on Amazon on doing art shows. It's by a woman, and I don't have it handy, but it's by a woman named Maria... oh, Maria Broy. I know her. Okay, if that's the one. If you Google that, that was... and she wrote that book about 10, 15 years ago. It's not a current book, but back when I started, we had the internet, but it didn't have the resources we have now, and I used that book. It was extremely helpful, and it's still 90% of that still applies today.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, so you want to get a... let me just fix this light here. Why he's fixing that. All I have is an Ultimate Guide to Shows and Fairs. It's less about the marketing tradecraft than the booth stuff, but if you're on Facebook or Instagram, you can leave the comment with the word "shows," and I'll send it to you, and I'll put it in the show notes on the podcast later. And there's something I'll send to you when we're done here, but there's another photographer friend of mine who does shows. He mainly is local in Oklahoma, but he travels a little bit. He had a really great blog post on his blog about... he's just really generous with his information and spent the time to write this up. He's got a really good guide on getting the tent, how to apply to shows, where to apply, really gave you all the basics. He did a really good job. I don't have that handy to give, but I'll send that to you, Patrick, and you can post that.

Patrick Shanahan: Send it to me later, and I'll... this is going to end up on the podcast. I'll put it in the show notes on the podcast.

John Kennington: Yeah, because he's... it's a really great resource. Guy's name is Jason Wallace, a photographer, and he just did a really great... and I had shared that on Small Wins a while back, but really good. Which, by the way, reminds me too, there's so many different ways to do it, and you don't have to take all the steps all the time. But I'm the marketing guy, so I have to be getting on your case on a regular basis. So you pay me for the live shows in the booth. How many of those things are you doing?

John Kennington: I have not done any live shows.

Patrick Shanahan: Yes, I got it. I have got to get you on that train because you know you're good on camera. You're obviously gregarious. You're having all of these conversations, and there's always downtime in a booth or when you set it up or after the show's over to just get in there with the camera and live stream to Instagram or live stream to Facebook. Got to get you doing it.

John Kennington: Okay, keep asking me about that because there are times when, especially if the weather's not great, and I'm just sitting there killing time in my booth, and that actually would be a really great thing to do.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, and look, it's like anything else. People are terrified of being on camera. What do you say? How do you fill the dead air? And it's always the same response. Me, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice. You got to go at it and go at it and go at it. One thing I want to ask you, a dead-to-wrongs question, simple: does John Kennington have the niche?

John Kennington: Yes, I've got my problem is I have too many niches, but they all sell though. They all sell.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, because I was looking at your work, and for those of you guys that are watching, I'm now scrolling through it, and I wouldn't say you have a niche. I would say your work spans a number of different gamuts. There's some nature stuff in there, there's some aviation stuff that I saw in there, classic Route 66 stuff in there. Like, you don't have a tightly defined niche. And I asked this, John, under the lens that like so many people are terrified, not terrified, but just get started when I figure out what my niche is, or if I could just have the niche, I would be successful. And early on in my career, like in this business and learning, I was like, that's great advice. I totally agree. You guys are all over the place. But I continue to see more stories like yours where I don't think the average person could look at your work and say this guy's got a niche, and yet it all sells. If you've got beautiful images and beautiful creativity and you've got the stories, it sells. It all sells. You don't need a niche.

John Kennington: There's no point. Yep, I agree. Sometimes I get a little jealous of... I see other photographers who have a very specific niche in their booth and who maybe have a more simpler setup. It's easier because my... I've got a double booth with big pieces in the background, and it takes me just a lot of work. And I see the... I do see other photographers who I know, who are friends of mine, who have a more narrow niche, and they'll just kill it at these shows too. They're killing it with smaller inventory, and I man, I wish I was like that. But again, I sell some aviation stuff, I sell the cars, I sell the landscapes, I sell some of the cemeteries. It all sells. It all sells. Yeah, it all sells. So I just can't bring myself to narrow it down.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, and again, it's there's no one way that works for everybody. One of the things especially over the years that we've gotten pigeonholed as a business at Art Storefronts is, oh, these are just the digital marketing and run sales and discounts guys. And it's... we have so many people that do that and so many people that don't do that and so many people that are doing shows and fairs like and some people that are only selling through galleries and some people that have the niche and some people that don't do prints. And I think there's just not one way that works for everybody. There's not one path that everyone needs to take. It's however you get it working, keep it working, keep it going.

John Kennington: Absolutely.

Patrick Shanahan: One thing I do, and I love that you're on Co-Pilot, and I love that Co-Pilot's posting for you, especially when you're driving the car or staying in a hotel or tearing down the booth, and that is great. But you already have a sizable business, and for everyone, he's sitting at 400 fans on Instagram. I don't know how many you are up to on Facebook. We have a ton of blue ocean here on what that can be done with your social media marketing, which is great. And I'm curious how you're thinking about that or if you even have time to think about that because you're doing so many shows.

John Kennington: I don't. I post... I've been actually posting a lot of my new work on Facebook, and I just recently started getting into or got into the Meta Business Suite so I can then cross-post my Facebook posts to Instagram, right? But I've been a little laggy on that. But you're right. Well, you just said it's so true because when I'm at the shows, I'm driving. I don't have time to post, to do a lot of creative posting. I know back over the winter when I wasn't... when I had my... when I wasn't quite so busy, I was doing some more videos and being a little more creative with my reels and stuff. But the last several months, since March, I've had a show pretty much every weekend. Spring is a busy time for me, so I've got shows almost every weekend. And then in between, I just don't have time to do that. So Co-Pilot has just been a saving grace on that. It keeps my... yeah, to keep it going. It's like a plant where it's like all you have to do is give it a little bit of water, just give it a little bit of water and keep it going when you're working on this higher leverage thing. And I would way rather you go and do those shows and fairs and build up customers and build up collectors and then build up email lists than social media followers because I think there's more leverage in it. But it's the slow game on social media, right? And it pivots me to my next story or my next question, which is about story and what role story plays in your work. And do you feel like when you're selling in the booth, you have a story to accompany every picture? Do you go into that deeply? How do you think about that?

John Kennington: Oh, the story is really important. So when somebody's interested in the picture, I greet everybody who comes in the booth for the most part. I'll say hi, how you doing, and just let them look. But if they show an interest, then I'll get up and ask if they have any questions, and then frequently will share the... and every picture has got a story. And in fact, I don't have an example to show you, but I have a little tag on each... and what I use is a... I have a little tag that's got a small thumbnail of the picture on it so they can find it, they can make sure they know which picture it goes with, and with the... and obviously with the price and format, but I've got a short two or three line telling the story behind that picture and the title and location. Then a quick story is to have, and I get more people tell me they really appreciate having those stories there and me telling them about the picture because there's a lot... there's a school of thought with some photographers that say they don't want it. They don't want even want to put the price, they don't want to put the title or the story because they want if somebody's interested, then they'll ask, and then they can engage, which is a valid point. But yeah, and I had gone that way for a while, but ever since I've been putting the little stories on my tag, people... I've gotten a lot of comments from people thanking me for doing that.

Patrick Shanahan: Would you send me a photo of what that looks like afterwards? I think people would love to.

John Kennington: I will do that.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, I am 100% the other side of the fence. I think everything needs to have a story. I think the story is as important as the work. Honestly, it's here I am looking at this beautiful image, but you have competitors there. They have beautiful images. I like it. It looks stunning. It's certainly easier to sell in person than it is online because I can see this beautiful print in front of me, and I'm on the edge, and what gets them over the edge is the story because something resonates with them or pulls on their heartstrings or they traveled to that place or they love that animal. I just feel like it's the biggest game-changer in all of it.

John Kennington: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's what closes the sale half the time. Like you said, there's a lot of... there's a lot of people out there with really great landscape photography. There's a lot of competition, but if I've got a unique story behind that picture, then that attracts people.

Patrick Shanahan: Shifting gears a bit, I would be curious how important is POD? POD, for those who don't know, is print on demand. Is that for you and supporting you in the shows and the... because I assume you're not carrying unlimited inventory everywhere you go. You have your displayed pieces. Are most people leaving with a print under their arm, or are you shipping it to them after the fact?

John Kennington: I have got a... I've got... I sell two... I do sell prints. I've got them... I got my display pieces like I got behind me here on the wall, and they're large for the most part, metal. I have some canvas, mostly metal, are like 24 by 36, 30 by 50, 30 by 60. I've got really large pieces that play, and those I will typically... those will... I'll print on demand because I will tell people because they get dinged up slinging these things around the shows. Every single one of them's got little nicks and flaws, but sometimes if someone really wants something and if it's in good shape, I'll sell it off the wall if that's what will close the sale or if it's something I'm looking to move, I'll give them a little bit of a discount since it's nicked, and I'm always more than willing to negotiate with people a little bit. Bread and butter though is selling prints. And I have... I'll show... I got an example. I did bring out with me. I've got two... I do sell and I sell unmatted prints. Here's one of my prints. Yeah, get in front of the camera here. And I just have one size now. I used to have a couple of different sizes. I just have one size and a medium size. If someone wants a bigger print or a small print, then I will take the order for it and ship it to them.

Patrick Shanahan: Got it. And I also sell... so I have those one print bin full of those, and I do have extra... what I do is I have a bucket with... because these are unmatted prints, there's just like a backing board on here because I don't sell it matted because number one, not everybody wants this little color mat that I might pick, and also then what I'll do is I have a bunch of extra of these sleeves with me, and I have a bucket full of unbagged prints. Okay, so when I sell a print, I will go into my bucket, take that print out, slip it in a bag, and replace it. And I do sell limited edition prints, so these are all pre-numbered and everything, so I just all I have to do is pull it out and slip it in the bag and replace it. And I do a pretty good job of knowing how much extra to bring of those so I don't run out. Sometimes I do. And the other thing I sell is I sell these small canvases. Okay, these are 10 by 15, and I stretch these myself. I print these and these... those prints and these canvases I print myself and stretch those canvases, and I'll have those, and I sell those at a higher price point, but they do sell.

Patrick Shanahan: Got it. So you... I'll sell you know a few thousand dollars worth of prints at every show.

John Kennington: Got it. So a few thousand. So you have the prints, you have the canvas, and then what are the big photos on? Are those metal, are those acrylic, are they...?

John Kennington: Mostly metal. Mostly metal. Yeah, I have a few things that are on... some of my nostalgic... I have a series of nostalgic military stuff, Rosie the Riveter, that I do on canvas because it looks more vintagey.

Patrick Shanahan: Got it. And I have a few shots that I think look better on the canvas, but for 90% of the booth, it's on metal.

Patrick Shanahan: Amazing. I ask everybody this question because it's important, and I'm getting... I get one-on-one. If there's one thing, one thing that we can improve at Art Storefronts, and just one, what would it be?

John Kennington: Oh, man, you... well, you do everything really well. I appreciate that, but there's got to be one thing that needs fixing. I tell you, I would... this is more of a technical thing, but I would like to... because it's hard for me to... because I do and I want to keep it all... it's all print on demand, right? I use Bay Photo as my printer. I'd like to be able to mix in my self-fulfilled orders with the... because I can't... this is a... I sell this as a 12 by 18, and I print these myself, right? If someone orders one of these big ones, I... or one of these prints, you have to ship twice. I don't have a good way of fulfilling those, or they cost significantly more than I can charge for those in the booth. I'd like to be able to offer those alongside, to be able to mix in some self-fulfilled items with the print on demand.

Patrick Shanahan: Got it. Got it. It's a pretty technical thing, but that's... yeah, something I really wish you'd have. How would that work logistically? I guess everything would have to ship to you, you would include your stuff in the box, and then you would ship out, right?

John Kennington: Yeah, yeah. If there was a mixture of things, yes, that would have... that would be the case. Although ideally, I guess if it was... again, this is getting pretty technical, specific to ASF... if somebody ordered something that was... that I would self-fulfill, that would come... maybe the order would split, have the print on demand part just normally, and then be able to say, oh, if I'm ordering a 12 by 18 paper print, or let's say all my paper prints, I would self-fulfill those rather than have Bay Photo the vendor fulfill, but those... those all come to me, and all the metal print orders go to Bay Photo.

Patrick Shanahan: Got it. Yeah, go to... you can't right now. I can't mix those two things, so that would be my thing. I would love to see noted.

Patrick Shanahan: Love it. It's very good feedback. One thing I didn't ask you is give us sort of your price range. Okay, number one, so like where does it start on the low end, and I'd love to hear where it goes up to the high end. And then do you have non-wall art in the lineup? Any merchandise in your lineup at all?

John Kennington: Okay, first question, the... these prints I sell for $39. Okay, and my deal is if they buy... my sign says three or more, $35 each. Okay, great. And interestingly, I have to say, I used to say... my sign used to say $39, three or more $35. Every show, I would have multiple people walk up to me with three prints in their hand and hand me $35. Of course, yeah. So I had to add the word "each" after that. So those are my least expensive things. And now, if somebody wanted an 8 by 10 print, I would charge $29, and I would have to ship that to them, but I'll offer that. But okay, cheapest thing in my booth is $39. My... the largest metal print that I have in the booth is about $2,700. I think it's a 36 by 72.

Patrick Shanahan: Got it. And it's actually a triptych, and that's a... and I will take orders for bigger pieces, which I have done. Certain... I can do any size, as I tell people with the big things on the wall. And what I often will have people do is send me a picture of their wall. This... I actually, what I'll... what I've been doing lately this last year is I tell them, send me a picture of your wall, I'll mock it up for you, and then we can estimate the size so you can figure out what size you need. And actually, at the show, I'll say, hey, send me your phone number, and I send them a text at the show with a picture of the picture they're interested in. I say, oh, just reply to this text with the picture you take of your wall. That's been extremely effective.

Patrick Shanahan: Oh, great. Right there. Yeah, then you're not even... plus with email, we're direct to text.

John Kennington: Yep, yep, yep.

Patrick Shanahan: And what was your second question there? I answered... okay, so okay, so on... so you've got sub-$100 all the way up to about $5,000. Let's just say $5,000 plus. Do you... before we get into the non-wall art part, do you feel like that's on the shows you're doing? And look, I know you're always talking to the other people that are there. Do you feel like that's a good upper limit for the shows in the fairs a year? Is like the five to $7,000 range, or do you feel like you could go even higher than that?

John Kennington: The shows I do, that's probably the upper limit. Yeah, there's a few shows I do where there's guys who are selling $15, $50,000 pieces, and they'll occasionally sell one, but that's... that's extremely specialized market and high-risk market, and somebody who's built up to that point, and I'm certainly not at that point. Yeah, $5,000 is sort of my cap. If I have a $5,000 sale, I'm as happy as could be.

Patrick Shanahan: Oh, I love that. Okay, and then what about non-wall art? Do you have any of that included in the booth?

John Kennington: No, because most of the shows I do not allow merchandise. Really?

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, yeah. Any of the major fine art festivals absolutely ban merchandise.

John Kennington: Wow, even note cards?

Patrick Shanahan: So no note cards and no merchandise of any kind.

John Kennington: No photo books? You know, probably 75% of the shows, no merchandise at all. Now, a photo book, you could... I probably get away with, yeah, because... I do know I got a couple of friends who've done photo books and have them out at some other shows, so probably a photo book is fine. Yeah, but a note card, t-shirt, mug, absolutely forbidden. You'll get kicked... you'll be asked to take it down. Yeah, but again, I'm in the higher end. These are the higher end shows, and there are a couple of shows I do every year where I can sell that stuff, but I don't because I just don't... for those couple of shows, it's all or none.

Patrick Shanahan: I understand why they do it because there's such a differentiation. Like when you open it up to it, it becomes a crafty thing, and people have sculptures and knickknacks and cutting boards and everything under the sun, and it's a different vibe. But I have to think they'd let you get away with the photo books.

John Kennington: And we got to get... I think the photo book would be fine. You know, that I'd be able to get away with that. That would work, but yeah, but merchandise and... what I... and I used to have... when I first started, I did note cards, and I know some people who make... who sell a ton of note cards. They'll at least usually make their booth fee from the note cards. What I found though was that it cannibalized my print sales. Some... they really like, boy, I really love this picture, they say, I don't want to spend $39, I can buy a $5 note card, and they'll buy the note card. Yeah, so I got... the main reason, one of the biggest reasons I got rid of them was cannibalizing print sales.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, so your... really, like this, your minimum is $39. You can't spend $39 and come in and look and enjoy looking at them, you're not my customer.

John Kennington: Wow, I love that.

Patrick Shanahan: So and I don't want to be. And I'm not going to be. Then when you're selling note cards, you're selling $5 pop note cards, you're busy dealing with that transaction rather than talking to the customer who might be wanting to spend $1,000.

John Kennington: Do yeah, yeah. So it's not... and then it's just more work. It's more inventory to deal with, to carry the stock. It just complicates life a lot. So now, when you first starting... now, those... that's great. I had note cards for several years, and I made some money off of them, but you know, I'm at the point I'm at, it's just not worth it for me to deal with note cards.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, and if you're solo in the booth, it's so... right, if you get bogged down to make pennies, and you're losing your whales, like that's your whole show.

John Kennington: Your whole... yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And really, I get bugged... somebody... so then you get the guys who are coming up and showing you their pictures on their iPhone, or other people just pumping you for information, and I can't talk to the other customer. I'm sometimes I'll just cut away from somebody and say, I got to go help this person, and just to shoo him out of the booth.

Patrick Shanahan: You have to. There's some people that are just chatters. We're not angry at you. It's just how it goes, right? It's just how it goes. But you never know. You tell you never know who's a customer. I've had people that I thought were just bugging me, and I wish they'd leave, and then they end up buying something. So for sure, try to be polite to everybody because you just don't know. You never know. It's all just about reps and sets. And I still firmly believe the cheaper items play a role, but if you're making the merch sales and you're not getting the email address, then it goes out the window because the whole point is okay, get addicted to my photography, start loving it, start connecting with images. Now I have a way to continue contacting you and contacting you. If I don't, then the merch becomes like less significant. But it's been fascinating for me just to hear from an operator that's doing the number of shows that you are per year and going. And then I got to... I have to just get close to ending with how many miles on the car.

John Kennington: I just bought a new... I had to buy a new van back last September, and I am up to... I think a little over 20,000 miles since September already on a brand new one.

Patrick Shanahan: Road warrior. Yeah, you're amazing, John. I don't want to take any more of your time. I really appreciate you spending the time with us. If folks want to follow up and get to know John and see more about John, the greatest way is on his Instagram handle at Kennington Photo, or your website address is imagesforlife.com, which I think is pretty creative. It's a cool website address for sure. And we will encourage John... okay, to start creating more content of the road trips. All right, I just... I just finished my first family road trip. I put 5,000 miles on my truck in three weeks. We went from Southern California up to Montana, all around Montana, and back. And the stuff in those road trips is like nothing. It's wild. There's always something going on, something cool that happens, a beautiful landscape, and everything else. And I think if you started challenging yourself to storytelling on... in the gas station, where you stayed for the hotel, a meal, something interesting, it would start building. It would start building sort of the lore in the narrative of, oh, he's another show, and there he is. And then you could end with the thing on the booth. So we got to talk about some of your social strategies and work on them.

John Kennington: Okay, I'll do that. I'm going to be in Montana next month, so I will.

Patrick Shanahan: Amazing. Where's the show at?

John Kennington: Montana, actually, I'm going shooting. I'm going to Glacier National Park.

Patrick Shanahan: Oh, amazing. Then I'm going over to Seattle to visit my son, and then we're going to... we're actually taking a four-week road trip. No, and no shows, just actually just shooting and sightseeing.

Patrick Shanahan: There you go. And creating the work. John, it has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for all the knowledge you shared. Guys, go ahead and follow at Kennington Photo, or again, imagesforlife.com. And anybody that's watching this after or listening to this after the fact, they'll be show notes of some of that tradecraft that he's got in his booth. And thanks, everybody, for tuning in.

John Kennington: Thanks, Sean.

Patrick Shanahan: Okay, thanks, Patrick.