A story, of branding, niche, and success. How Megh crossed the 1 Million Mark in art sales

A story, of branding, niche, and success. How mid-western painter Megh Knappenberger crossed the 1 Million Mark in art sales. 7 years ago Megh went all in on her art career. Her journey since has seen her surpass the 1mm mark in sales, discover a niche, and cement herself as a brand. This is her story, interview, and question and answer section . For all of the additional assets including the video interviews go here. If you ever want to join me (Patrick) on a live webinar I run them 3x weekly and would love to meet you and hear your story. You can register for those here.

Podcast Transcribe

Patrick Shanahan: Today's edition of the Art Marketing Podcast features another customer interview. Specifically, I talk to a long-time customer and friend, Meg Namburger. She's been on the podcast before and featured in our ads over the years, so many of you know her and what she does. She recently crossed the million-dollar mark in her business, so it was an exciting time to sit down with her. I treated this one just like the Jonah interview, creating a webpage that has the interview broken up into a Q&A session and included a bunch of her work that tells her story a little bit. I'll include the link to that in the show notes. I do a little bit of an intro upfront, but I'm really enjoying these sessions and learning a lot from these super successful artists and photographers. I can't wait to bring you more of them. I hope you enjoy it. On that note, here is the Megan interview.

Patrick Shanahan: All right, well, right off the top, your intro music was a hit, so that's always a positive. Welcome, everybody, to today's interview. Some of you are Art Storefronts customers, some of you are not. This session is open for everyone, and we're working on a new series here at Art Storefronts with the premise that we're blessed as a company to have some insanely talented and successful artists and photographers call Art Storefronts home. Meg is one of those people. She's been with us for quite a few years, and we realized that we need to do a better job exposing some of these folks, their stories, what makes them tick, how they approach branding, marketing, and sales, and all of that. What we've discovered so far is that each has a completely unique story, a different set of circumstances, subject matter, material, and a defined niche or not at all, as the case may be. The variance in this business, the various revenue sources, and the marketing strategies are so wildly different and super fascinating. There's no one way to get there, no one roadmap that works for everyone. The idea with this series is to get some of these folks on, hear their stories, how they do things, how they approach marketing and sales, creation, work-life balance, and everything in between, and see what we can learn from them. I definitely learned a ton on the last one with Jonah, and that was really fun. 

Patrick Shanahan: My hope is that by hearing from artists like Jonah last week and Meg this week, you'll leave with encouragement, hope, and motivation to keep you going through the down times and the rough times. Knowing Meg for as long as I have, you can ask her—there have been some down times on her road. There were times when she was thinking about folding it all up. She has a really funny story about an art booth that you should potentially ask her about. I wanted to set that up as a sort of table setting. Especially when you're just getting started, the urge is to hear from a successful person and internalize everything they did, thinking, "That's all I got to do. I got to do it exactly that way." One of the things I realize in these interviews is that's a normal reaction. You hear how they're doing things and think, "This is how they're doing it. I just need to do it like that." But you don't necessarily have to follow everything. Not everything is going to work for you. It's no different than a chef who was born in Mexico, lived in France, and had an Italian grandmother. All of that gets thrown into the blender, churned up, and out comes your style of who you are and what defines you. My advice is to not try to glom onto any one thing but take what speaks to you, what you think you can bolt into your business, what gives you a new way of thinking, and then don't become Meg or Jonah, become you. Take away from it what you will.

Patrick Shanahan: Quick programming note: the idea is to bring in Meg, do the interview, do my best Barbara Walters, and then that energy will go wherever it goes. After that, we will go into Q&A. You can raise your hands and ask Meg questions directly. I like these things going organically and off the cuff. No prep, Meg and I did no prep, didn't talk to her, just said, "Hey, be here at this time. Let's just see what happens." She has no idea what I'm going to ask her either. It should be pretty fun. If you have to leave as the thing is rolling along, if you want to throw comments in the chat, a lot of people are doing that. I will see those and might ask those questions to Meg, so you can avail yourself of that if you like. If you have to leave early or come in late, don't worry, we're recording it. We're going to send a copy to everybody. One final disclosure: Meg has been a customer for a long time. I've known Meg for quite a long time and consider her a dear friend at this point. But she is also a bit crazy. Early on, when she was growing her business and we were trying to figure out what we were doing at Art Storefronts, we worked closely with customers on case studies. We approached Meg with crazy ideas, and she was like, "Yeah, okay, I'll expose my email and social media marketing, my Facebook to you." We worked on a number of different case studies over the years—Facebook ads, sales campaigns, messenger bots. Meg was a pioneer in running live art shows, one of the first ones to do those. She's been on the podcast multiple times, and I highly recommend you go back and listen to those episodes because they're super interesting.

Patrick Shanahan: Meg, I'm very happy to have you on today. Can't wait to figure out what we are going to learn. To kick things off, quick introduction—who you are, what you do, and to spice things up a little bit, what's one thing that very few people know about you that is interesting and/or embarrassing?

Megh Knappenberger: Oh, I have to throw a couple. Can you warn me about that? I am very tight-lipped. I think most people think I'm very laid back, but I'm actually very organized and buried at all. So, classic. What's sort of your brief origin story? Who you are, where you grew up, how you got into painting, the whole thing.

Megh Knappenberger: Sure. I grew up in St. Louis, and I always painted. I was always this kind of artsy kid. I went to KU for a graphic design degree and lived in Chicago for about 10 years. I was an art director for a while. I worked at big agencies, small in-house, kind of all of it, until I started my own thing. I did a lot of food branding, which is where some of my work comes from. Then I had an injury and had to take a step back from all the work. During that time, I started painting again, and I thought, "I wonder if I can make this a real job." The rest is history, about seven years ago.

Patrick Shanahan: Seven years ago, wow. I didn't know that. Here's another curveball. What is Meg short for, or is it Meg?

Megh Knappenberger: When I got married to my husband, my last name was Snapperberger. He told me on our first date that I did not have to take his name, which was funny. I thought, "I've got to lose a syllable somewhere," so that's when I started my megaproject professionally.

Patrick Shanahan: Love it. I've interviewed you a number of times and talked to you thousands of times, it feels like. I'm going to do my best to resist the urge to go right into marketing, which is the only thing I want to talk about. I want to start outside the realm. Some of this stuff came up in Jonah's interview, and I got a bunch of feedback on it. Do work-life balance exist? Is it a thing? How do you approach it? You're a mom, multiple kids, a mortgage, a social life, and all of that, and you're running a big business. I'd be interested in getting your thoughts on all of that.

Megh Knappenberger: That's a great question. I think my answer to this will be different today than it would have been five years ago, and it will be in five years. I think the key to balance, at least for me, is being very clear about what is happening right now and what do I have to work with in this moment. I have an eight-year-old and a four-year-old, and four or five years ago, the struggle was different. It was all about physical exhaustion, having a baby, and then another kid. As they move forward, the challenges change. So right now, the challenge is different. The physical exhaustion has shifted to managing the calendar. We just spent a bunch of time reconstructing our calendar, making sure we have a digital display in the kitchen, and working with what we have. For me, and I think everybody has life stuff—some people are caring for aged parents, dealing with chronic illnesses, everyone has something. For me, it's about getting really good at looking at what I have to work with right now, what I can depend on, and what's the most important thing I have to get done. Everything else has to fall away. Especially when my kids were younger, it was hard because the balance was so much more tilted towards family and kids due to the unpredictability of that. But what I've found, really this year, is I've been able to go back through the wreckage of the past five years, picking up some of those things I had to leave behind, dusting them off, and bringing them back in, having more balls in the air. Balance is not something you set and it just stays. It's constantly evolving, and you have to be flexible. Things shift around and change. It's about stopping and saying, "What's the most important thing right now? What can I set aside?" I can get very tunnel-visioned and forget to look at whether something is truly important. That's my balance. It's constantly shifting.

Patrick Shanahan: Such a great answer. My kids are five and seven, and at some point, you get old enough and wise enough to realize life has seasons. You just go with the flow. We're in an insane parenting phase, so we can commiserate about that.

Megh Knappenberger: Yes, indeed we can. There are seasons.

Patrick Shanahan: I want to hear about other inputs. What other books, podcasts, or YouTube channels do you feel have been instrumental over these last seven years as inputs to help you hit levels and do what you do?

Megh Knappenberger: I think for me, it's been about opening up to the research side of things. It's something I've always loved. When I first started painting full-time seven years ago, I had my style, and I was working really fast and feverishly, thinking I had to make a billion paintings. Over time, I've started to let myself slow down a little and make time for research, which totally impacts how I work. Personally, I love science podcasts. I love Radiolab. There's a podcast called Apologies that's fascinating, about all different types of technologies. I also enjoy reading about other creative people—chefs, writers, musicians. Reading their autobiographies or stories of their lives is really inspiring to me. I listen to audiobooks while I work, so I burn through audiobooks pretty fast. I try to work in a business development book every third or fourth one. It's important to balance learning and enjoyment.

Patrick Shanahan: That's so true. Different times, different things from the books speak to you. Not to go too far down the rabbit hole, but early on, you start reading a book and think, "I started this thing, I have to finish it," even if it's a bad book. Learning to put the damn thing down when it's not giving you any value and just move on is huge. If you get one thing out of a book, the ROI is massive.

Megh Knappenberger: Yes, it's important to put books down when they suck.

Patrick Shanahan: You mentioned not following other artists and photographers. Do you want to explain that to your follower base?

Megh Knappenberger: Everyone always asks this. My followers are mostly artists and photographers. We've used them in our ads a ton of times, so we have like ruined her social accounts with artists.

Patrick Shanahan: I understand. As you know, I mean, I don't read about Danish teenagers. Analyzing that for later.

Megh Knappenberger: No, on the list.

Patrick Shanahan: When you went full-time seven years ago, did you literally burn the boat, quit your job, and say, "I'm going to make this a thing," or did you keep the job and this was going to be the side hustle for a couple of years?

Megh Knappenberger: True sweater, and it burns the boat. At the time, I had a back injury, and over the course of 18 months, it got to the point where I couldn't work anymore. I was running a branding studio with a couple of other clients, and I had to completely blow that up. I told all my clients I was done and completely set it on fire. I was forced into doing that. I needed to take three or four months to recover. At the time, I had a forty-thousand-dollar nest egg to do that, so I had a little cushion. It's important to talk about the amount and how I did that because I wouldn't have jumped without money. I had that as a buffer, knowing I had a little time to figure out what I wanted to do. When that ran out, I would have to reassess.

Patrick Shanahan: And I'm sure you got pretty close to that point.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, I didn't hit it. I started to make some money, so it goes up and down. I didn't hit a low point until I was six months or a year into it. I got to 17 cents left in the bank account before it happened.

Patrick Shanahan: Which is crazy. People always ask me that question, "I'm ready to quit my job and do this." I don't want to be responsible for that decision.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, people ask me that frequently. Everybody wants to be told, "Yes, this is a good idea," or they want validation so they can say, "Everyone told me this was a good idea." But you can't ask other people. You have to evaluate your own situation. Everybody's financial situation is different. You have to figure out how long your money will last, how many months you can pay your mortgage, and how much you need to start bringing in each month to make this viable. It's shocking how many people don't do the math. You have to treat it like a business. 

Patrick Shanahan: In that period where you were figuring it out and plowing through the nest egg, did you sign up with us during that season?

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, I signed up within that first year. I was working on getting licensing with KU. Before I could get licensed, I had to show that I could fulfill large-volume orders. At the time, I was printing, packing, shipping, and driving to UPS myself for everything I sold. I couldn't meet the demand. I needed something to allow me to do that, which is where Art Storefronts came in.

Patrick Shanahan: That's super interesting. In previous podcasts and interviews, we've covered Meg's KU story and how amazing that is. We don't need to cover that again. Meg has taught licensing classes inside of Art Storefronts a couple of years ago. She's done some unique things there. What I would like to talk about is, from an outside observer's perspective, your superpower seems to be reverse engineering attention. You don't just create what you want to create; you start with a massive audience in mind and create the work for that audience. You've done this a number of different times, and then you get the massive level up when that particular audience is massively charged up. For example, the KU group when they won the National Tournament, creating the Chiefs stuff when they won the Super Bowl. It's a force multiplier on the fact that an audience is already there. In your recent series of works, you've continued to go back to this well again and again—Tony Bourdain, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Ted Lasso, and the women's KC soccer team. How much of that was intentional and strategic? Do you intuitively do that? Do you think that's going to be a huge part of your strategy going forward, or do you feel like you just borrowed that to get attention for the short term?

Megh Knappenberger: It's absolutely intentional and strategic. It's not just luck. The key to these things I'm choosing is that I'm very passionate about them personally. There's a lot of stuff out there with big audiences that I don't care about, and it's much harder to do this with those topics. I'm saying yes to work that's in my values and interests. It's important to be strategic about the work you lean hard into making and marketing. Being able to reverse engineer is a skill you can learn and perfect. It's not a personality trait. As artists and photographers, we're good at imagining things. We can imagine how a piece will lay out, and it's the same with marketing. Think about what you want and then work backward from there. This helps me decide what work I want to be doing. It's not the only work I'm doing, but it's the work my fan base sees. It allows time for me to do something more personal on the side if I want.

Patrick Shanahan: I love when you get lost in answering. It's more enjoyable. 

Patrick Shanahan: And he's been ranting recently in a couple of reels. I mean, I don't see everything he puts out, but everyone comes with my feed and I look at it. He's talking about this notion of the top one percent, right? And how using it to prove how out of whack most people's, you know, his audience is largely kids, right? Like how out of whack people's ideas of how much money they're gonna be making is. It's like made on the street, and he's like, "How much do you want you're seeing?" Another to make like $875,000 a year, right? His point was like the top one percent of wage earners in the United States, you know, the bottom of that one percent is like $400,000. I looked it up; it's actually higher than $600,000. But where you are and what you sold in terms of art, you know, you're over a million-dollar level. You've sold, I mean, I don't want to, you know, put too many figures, but the sheer amount of volume that you've sold directly online, directly from your website, is staggering. I believe that firmly places you already in the top one percent of art sellers in the United States. Obviously not the very top of it. It's a huge percentage, but have you thought and reflected on that? What an incredible achievement that is in seven years. And then the follow-up is, what is the ambition for your art business? Because you're so new into your career; you're just getting started. I mean, seven years is nothing. That's a blip, right? I mean, I've got so many people that come onto the art business webinars that are in their 70s, 80s, and 90s even. So, when you think about that arc, like, ultimately, how far does Meg want to go? Where do you want to go? Have you thought about it? Have you thought about it?

Megh Knappenberger: Oh yeah. Uh, yeah, I rolled over the one million dollar in sales mark, I think earlier this year, like within the last year. And, uh, my dad helps to track some of my royalties, like some of the really specific stat offer KU, and so he, you know, he was kind of like keeping track of that. Elmer's pretty close here. So definitely, you know, within my own family circle, we had a celebration just for that because it is a huge deal. It was a big moment this year because at the beginning, when I started out, my goal was less like, "Let's just see if this works. Let's see if I can make a living," which, you know, is modest. And, you know, the goal was really simple and small. And I think this year I finally realized I was feeling a little bit kind of like, "Where do I go next? What do I do?" like a little bit unsure or untethered at the beginning of the year. And I sat down and I was like, you know what, I'm on something because I previously thought like, "It works. People like my work. I'm not going to do this. People are buying things. This is worth it." Then I thought, "Now what do I want now? Like, where do I want to go?" And so I have spent a lot of time this year thinking about that. And I've also been working with business coaches, mentors, which is something I've always done throughout my entire self-employed career, which is 13 years. I always had somebody there who I've been bouncing things off of, uh, talking about the time of conversations, about like, "Okay, here's kind of what I'm thinking about doing." So, you know, this year is really about like, "What do I want this to do for me? And where do I want to go?" And I have, you know, I want to build an empire. I want to own a big piece of the West Bottoms, which is the neighborhood in the city where I'm located. I want to buy a building down here, open a gallery and studio space, and I want to do big, big projects. For example, I'm doing a collection of 11 original paintings for a building on KU's campus right now. This is like a huge project. And one of the things that's cool about this is that the work then can get reproduced and sold, and it'll hang in a place where it's seen. So, I'm saying yes to projects like that that are not only cool and have terrible clients, but are also reproducible in the future so that I can do something once and sell it a million times. And that's really at the core of my strategy is to make work that is making me money when I sell the original, but it's also reproducible and marketable, you know, kind of forever. So, every artist is different. For me, it's about being very intentional about that original work instead of making my whole strategy about like churning out originals. That is not the way that I like doing it for sure.

Patrick Shanahan: And again, I love what you said there because the deeper I get in this business and the more years, the more experience and everything else, it's like there is no playbook that works for everyone. None whatsoever. 

Megh Knappenberger: No, no.

Patrick Shanahan: And, you know, pursuant to some of our conversations that we've had, I hammer Meg on developing and cultivating additional revenue sources for your business because I think there are significant possibilities there. And, you know, I realize as we mature as a business and, you know, I get this all the time, like, you know, people zeroing in on one thing that we do, one thing that we don't. This person, that person, you know, with Jonah last week, it's like, "His website's not even on your site. He's doing something different for his gallery." I don't care. Our job, I realize as a business, is to help create successful artists and photographers. And I don't care what particular service of ours you use to get there as long as it's pushing you faster to get there, right? And there's no one rule about how you do it. Like some of the people that are following you on this are selling a ton of classes, and it's like, you know, it doesn't matter. There's no one way. Just pick some revenue sources that work and keep building the following. You know, one of the techniques and the tactics that we talk about all the time, and it's had a number of different names over the years. It was the curator strategy, and then it morphed a little bit differently. But the takeaway is, go and find somebody that has access to a ton of attention and try to get your art involved with them, right? And along that course, it's like, well, how do I do it? What do I ask in return? Like, what am I going to get out of it? Like, how do I pitch it to them? Just start the damn conversation because all you're looking for is one big win where you can go back to the well and back to the well and back to the well. And I feel like, you know, that original KU deal for you and everyone's asking, "What's KU? What's KU?" Meg got an official licensing deal at the University of Kansas. Um, with somebody just correcting me because of the Kansas University. Anyway, University of Kansas, um, to paint the mascots and sell this. And then it turned again into, you painted the basketball stadium, and then back to the well again. You've done, like, multiple events with them, and you're still doing events with them. So you essentially found someone that had attention. You got one deal over the line, and now more, more, more, more. It's what the whole strategy should be.

Megh Knappenberger: You were talking about the curator strategy and the, you know, different, different streams of income. And one thing that you were really pushing at the beginning of this year was, uh, you know, smaller, smaller, like merch items, things that people can impulse purchase.

Patrick Shanahan: Yep.

Megh Knappenberger: Like to pull new customers in. And it's something really interesting is that I did the Ted Lasso piece like last December, and, um, I did that piece. It was on my website. It was all, all there. I met Jason. We did the whole thing. Literally, yes.

Patrick Shanahan: Very nice.

Megh Knappenberger: Very, I mean, I never, like, you know, so I don't know. It's not like we're best friends, but, uh, but we, you know, did all that. And you would think like, certainly, certainly everything's better for that. Like that, like, it was just totally quiet. Then as the season three and the finale started to like kick that up, uh, a few months ago, I created a mug like with that image on it, and it's just the word "believe." And I did it again. I did like a cool video of it, and I did a giveaway with a curator around like 250,000 followers. And I kid you not, I sold so many mugs that my bank called me because they thought it was fraud. Like, because there were so many charges coming through from Art Storefronts or the, the charter pack. And they were like, um, what's going on? And then I did another giveaway and it happened again because I sold so many pieces of the merch, which brought in all of these new people into my, uh, well as the producers onto my website and email list. And it's just like a perfect example of like a giveaway cost me five dollars in cost, um, a great, uh, engagement on both sides and like, you know, that all the people in. And then

 Patrick tells me, "Call me in five years when one of those people buys a hundred thousand dollars," which is like the end game of that strategy, which I totally, totally believe.

Patrick Shanahan: So, yeah, it's a great example.

Megh Knappenberger: The easiest customer, yeah, the one you already have. It also, while you had to raise the prices on your originals, but we don't need to, we don't need to rant out that curse.

Patrick Shanahan: Um, yeah, but it's also a good example of like one more thing about that is sometimes the work, like for things like Ted Lasso, that's the thing where like somebody's more likely to just buy a TV character and I like it. They're not as likely to buy in a higher price point things. And so like it was a great image, but I just needed to like find the right thing. So even within my own work, sometimes I have to like some of things really good on this thing and I need to like put all the way behind that. And so that was a good question for me this year too.

Patrick Shanahan: For sure. Now I put in my notes to ask you this because whenever one of these last times we were on the phone, you were like questioning a little bit whether or not this branding and I should say like, everyone's like, you know, "How do I brand myself? What do I do about branding?" And one of the lessons I learned earlier in my career is sometimes you don't have a damn choice in it at all. Sometimes your audience brands you, and then guess what sucks the best is when your audience brands you. And so Meg has kind of become, started with KU and it's since morphed into these various other Midwest Kansas, Missouri icons like whether it's the Chiefs or whether it's the women's team or whether it's some of the work that you've created that that is representative. You were questioning, you were worrying a little bit on the phone about, "Do I want to be pegged down as, as Midwestern Meg, which is short for Megan, or do I want to try and hit something bigger?" Have you one, do you remember my advice? Would I give on that? And two, have you come around on that?

Megh Knappenberger: Uh, yes and yes, I have. And, uh, I think that this tied right in with that beginning end of the year question of like, okay, and I pick a new goal. And I did sit and I didn't think about it for a while. And ultimately, like you said, you know, my audience has kind of branded me as a Midwestern artist. And also it's something that I can't, I can't really separate myself. You know, it's such a, it's such a part of who I am and how I work and the way that I look at the world and the way that I think that like this idea of like a Midwestern ethos is now like, you know, I'm acquainted, I guess that's the best way to say it because, uh, it was already there.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, and that was, that was my advice to Meg when we talked on the question. It's like, you know, I can, I can, I can argue both sides, right? Like you, you want, you want, you want the world to be your oyster and be able to sell into much bigger markets. But guess what? The Midwest, pretty, pretty doggone big market. There's a lot of action there, right? And owning that is not such an easy thing to get. And with each additional step, you keep getting higher and higher up the chain, which I think is extremely interesting and all that. Um, I want to ask you a question about priorities and time. I do not want to turn this into an ASF pitch session, but you're on co-pilot. Co-pilot's helping you. Okay, great. It's giving you some time back. Where, how are you allocating the time that you're getting back as a result of that? What, what, where are you finding is the highest leverage place with that time?

Megh Knappenberger: To go back to, uh, I'm painting. Like, that's the biggest one is being able to set a more defining schedule for myself during the week, kind of. And this is taking, this takes time to like figure this thing out. It's like, what, what works best in terms of when. But, uh, oftentimes I would come in on a painting day, which means it would be pretty open. And I would be like, "Oh, I haven't listed anything in a while," or I'd start like making a video of something that I was working on. And then I would kind of fall down that social media rabbit hole and get sucked in. And so this, it's just helping me to know that like, that little like, keep that thing going, don't let it die, like that little bell in my mind has like really quieted down because I know even, and I'm like completely in the cave for the week, there are things that are moving that I just need to sit down and review once a week or once a month. Really, it's like once a month. So it is totally awesome.

Patrick Shanahan: Super, super interesting. One, one other thing I want to wind back on, um, that I think you probably really always enjoy and I think you would be super active on even if you weren't trying to build your business, your art business, is you took to Instagram super early. You're, you're mega active on Instagram and always have been. Let me define that, regularly posting, not just regularly posting about her work, showing a window into Meg's world, what makes her tick, what she's interested in, where she's traveling to, little windows here or there, right? Understanding that, leveraging polls and stories and the whole thing, right? The whole full tactical thing. Um, I think one, I want to hear about what impact you think that's had on your business. Generally curious, don't know. And then two, I think you strike a really, really good balance between not just making it about the work all the time and then also, you know, I've been ranting recently. I'm not sure if you've heard any of it, but it's, it's my firm belief that 50% of an art sale is the art, 50% of it is the story, the artist and what makes them tick, how people bond with them and like, you know, can, can represent. And it's, you know, it's funny because the guy that runs Instagram, his name is Adam Mosseri. He's got a huge account. He does a really, really good job practicing what he preaches, i.e., you know, I own the social network. Yeah, I run the social network. I'm going to be extremely active on the social network. And if you haven't followed him, you should totally follow him because it's interesting to keep up with the, the latest, but he's got like a huge dad life section, right? Like, when have you seen Mark Zuckerberg post a single solitary damn thing, right? Like, no one knows what that guy's up to. No one really cares. Elon Musk does a good job of it too, to a certain extent. Twitter's a different network or X now. But anyway, I'm not about that. You, you strike a very good balance. I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Do you just enjoy it? It comes natural, in which case everyone's going to hate you with that. Or do you feel like you're intentionally doing, doing things there in, in, in a certain way where you're, you're, you're breaking things off like that nude, uh, uh, Centennial?

Megh Knappenberger: Definitely. And I read something a few years ago that really stuck with me that, uh, social media, like, let's hold on. I wrote that because I want to make sure that's right. Uh, like on Instagram, my audience is not there to serve me. I am there to serve them.

Patrick Shanahan: Wow.

Megh Knappenberger: They are there to be entertained, not anything else. People are on social media to be entertained. So I think at the beginning, you know, I remember I was guilty of a lot of like early Instagram, you know, goose on us, whatever, everybody was. Uh, but I have constantly tried to learn and watch and kind of see what other people are doing, reading things and just kind of see like, what do people recommend? And then also like, what feels good? So I don't always just like follow things, but, uh, one of the things that I think is a crucial social media thing is, uh, sometimes I see people like, especially being an artist, it's a solitary pursuit and sometimes it can be like, there are things that can feel really hard and we can get into this mode where it's like, oh my God, I'm not doing 10 hours of things. Is that whatever? Seasoning of it. And I have this whole audience out here or I'm like, I'm not sure about this thing. And we like use social media as a way to like, uh, affirm our decisions or whatever. And like, no, no, no, no, no, no. They are not there to like affirm and serve us. Like we are there to push pure entertainment. And that doesn't mean it has to be like sunshine and like only like happy, perfectly styled startup. It just means it's intentional to say my intention is to tell stories and to connect. And sometimes those stories are, you know, they're whatever, they're all over the gamut. But I focus on making sure that like pausing. And if I'm about to like post something that I'm like, well, is this me just needing a place to sort of thing, then it is like remembering to like not bringing my personal baggage into my social media business because it is

 a business and these people are customers and, um, and like all of that other NXT stuff, they're like, it seems, it seems like an oxymoron for artists and creatives to like separate our personal badge from our business source because they're just like, people expect that's what it is. But like, and it, there needs to be a place for that. So that is like, those were these mentors, coaches, uh, probably therapists for everybody. We all needed therapists. Like that's where that goes. So I think being really realistic about like this social media account, uh, like Instagram is for my business. It is for making connections, making sales. Uh, and then, you know, when I post things that are kind of about my life or about my family, it always has like a little tie to the work somehow. So it's not just like, look at my kids, they're so beautiful. It's like, look at my beautiful child that also in the gallery of art that we've collected and it's, you know, so I try to like make it so there's always a thread because it is confusing for people who follow you and they ultimately will unfollow you if you're on there like complaining about filing your sales tax too much, which sucks, but like it's not.

Patrick Shanahan: I could, I could like rant on that. 

Megh Knappenberger: It's a really, it's a really sage thing to say. I mean, what was interesting is how you inverted that and said, you know, they're there to be entertained. Right. And, and when she says that, I think that's a, that's a, that's a very, very interesting way to use the language. Now, if you follow Meg, so and apologies in advance for doing this Juan has put it in the chat. I think you guys should follow me just, just deal with it. You already dealt with it. Come on down. Um, you're still marketing on there. You're still tying it back to the work. You're still showing off the work. You're still showing off your process, you know, all throughout it. So it's don't think that Meg's not doing it for the work, but that lens of like, they're there to be entertained. I think, I think is fascinating because once they're bonded to you, then, you know, the rest, the rest is just all downhill from there. What do you, what are you up to on Instagram now?

Megh Knappenberger: I'm really quiet at this moment because it's so deep in this, uh, maybe this is KU project. So it's been a lot more heavily, uh, the co-pilot stuff, which is great because that is just kind of like keeping the engine running. So what I'm working on right now is this like, you know, figuring out how to tell the story of 11 pieces of art in a way that, you know, that has to get stretched out over time and the research and like, I could talk for the rest of my career about this project and fill all the time. So it's a really interesting thing. And it's something that I'm thinking about and planning and strategizing while I'm doing the work is like, how do I talk about and launch this work in November, fort to fort and tell these stories in a way that people can digest them, uh, and like balancing like how, how much to say and how much to hold back and where to put the details. And it is, this is, uh, one that I haven't done this before. I haven't done it or this many pieces as it were that have a story that's so big. So I'm still trying to figure that out. I don't know. Watch, watch in November for sure.

Patrick Shanahan: For sure. And, and that's, I'm asking these questions selfishly, right? Because for a long time, we were relying as a business on spending too much money on ads and we've since like really fired up our organic program. One, because I have to teach all, all my customers how to do it. And two, if you're not walking the walk, you are a fraud. So I've been hammering that really, really hard, still learning, still figuring things out every single solitary day.

Megh Knappenberger: I don't think you're hammering it hard enough. I think there's, I think there's more potential. I mean, it's just too important of a social network, right? And it, I always talk about the two of them in conjunction, insert the word Instagram or Facebook. It's the same thing. It's all the same, different post types and the storytelling and everything else. Do you, do you, do you find that you're learning to enjoy it more, enjoying the, the art form that is storytelling and in those little boxes that we have to shoehorn the content into?

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, I am because I think for one, seeing it for what it is, is really important. And, uh, you know, stopping like one thing that helped me a lot with that was like, I don't write and post at 9:00 PM anymore. And I did all of my social media from like 8:30 to 10:00 PM for a long time and I, I grew to hate it because of that. And that's like a key time when people are on, but ultimately like that. Yeah. So I think that's a big part of it. It's just like make it work for you noon every day works for you. Like do that. Yeah. Yeah. And then just like leaning into the things that, that I like doing about it. And then I'm keeping track, like I'm, you know, keeping like a pretty high level numbers across the board on every part of my business and consistently Instagram and striving the most people to my website and it's driving sales. So that just reminds me like this, you know, this is working. Many people are coming, I'm the follower numbers are going up. They have a lot of good connection with people through there and that also feels good in a setup.

Patrick Shanahan: Very good. And I want to, I just want to clarify things. Okay. Meg has a ton of momentum and a ton of traffic. So she needs to spend more time on her stats than the rest of you would. Because I always say to everyone, like, stop looking at your stats, don't look at your stats in like the first couple of years, because all it's going to do is prevent you from continuing to ship content and get better and better and better at the storytelling.

Megh Knappenberger: So I think, I think this is the first year I'm, I'm on year seven and honestly, I'm under 13. And this is the first year that I have ever really, uh, for one, I've had time because I had to scale myself in other ways. Uh, especially like marketing. Uh, but yes, this is the first year I've done it. So there's a lot of states that like, there's a process of things that, uh, you can't do these things until all the little fires are out everywhere else. And at the beginning, there's little fires everywhere. So it's just, you know, things, things change into focus changes over time and, uh, you just like figure it out.

Patrick Shanahan: Oh yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Patrick Shanahan: Um, I think that was perfect, the perfect amount of time. The one thing, the one thing that I'd like to end, and then we'll open it up for Q&A, is also, I'll sort of tell the story because I love talking about the low points and the suffering and how it all goes. Early on, early on in Meg's career, she was in an art booth somewhere and didn't someone like throw up in the booth?

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, yeah.

Patrick Shanahan: So, like, all day on a Saturday, like eight hours, somebody throws up in the booth, okay, and she sells like, you know, nothing.

Megh Knappenberger: Oh, you sold nothing? Okay, so this is just a straight goose egg, wasted the day cleaning up puke, the entire thing. And then she pivoted to what she did now. As much success as you've had, I'd be very curious what advice, knowing what you know now, would you go back and give to year one Meg? And then what advice would you have for everyone that's on this call that, you know, is in year one or year two or year three?

Megh Knappenberger: I would say advice for year one would be to slow down a little bit. It's not about making the work and like taking more time in the making process. You know, I felt very rushed, just kind of like, ah, and as my style has evolved in cool ways since, I have allowed myself more time for play and experimentation and just kind of like goofing around. I wish I had allowed myself more time for that in year one. And for everybody else, I would say my biggest piece of advice, this might sound a little dark, but you have to be the person who goes out and admits of things. Nobody is coming to find you to put you on the news. Nobody is coming to tell you that your work is finished and like it's good enough. No one's coming to tell you that you need to charge more for your hours. No one's coming, and you have to be your own biggest fan because if you can't look at your work and say, like, that is good, I did my best, I'm ready to put this out into the world and it's worth twenty thousand dollars, kind of like, that's the price. No one else, no one is going to tell you that something's worth 20,000. And if you are afraid and you say, like, I don't know, I don't know if people can afford that, like, no one's gonna pay you twenty thousand dollars for something if you're like, like you have to be confident. And God's confidence, like I said, that Sarah Olympus is worth repeating, like confidence is going to be learned. I'm not a naturally confident person and it's something that I thought was a personality trait for most of my life, and it's not. It can be learned, and the way it gets developed is it's like anything else is through practice. So, like, just pay attention, like you can do a thing and you're like, damn, I feel good about that, like write it down and like do more of that until you begin to feel more self-confident because there's nobody out there who's going to do the things for you and make the decisions for you and validate everything. Like it has to be you. So do you, do it, be yourself.

Patrick Shanahan: Love it. Couldn't finish on a higher note than that. I think that was great. We went right about 55 minutes. Amazing. I don't know that we're touching higher points than that. I do want to ask you about your tattoo, but I will save that for later. I actually asked her about it already. I just like making fun of her for the tattoos. Okay, so what I want to do is I want to open it up to Q&A. And if you are new, you're not an Art Storefronts customer, you don't know how this goes. If you look at the bottom of your Zoom window, there's a little smiley face and it says reactions. If you click that thing, there's a way to raise your hand digitally speaking that lets me know you have a question. I can bring you on. You can ask Meg whatever you like, and she will answer to the best of her ability. I want to be extremely sensitive to Meg's time and I thank you for the time that you've invested in this already. I really appreciate you for that. So I would like to keep the questions short and succinct and to the point so we can let Meg get back to building this business. And on that note, you ready? Ready for Q&A?

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, let's do it.

Patrick Shanahan: Alright. Okay, Sari, you got there first. Go ahead. You're up first.

Sari: I'd like to say thank you, Meg, and Patrick, I thought your questions were really interesting. I did get a little nervous when you said it took you 13 years because I'm at year four and I just don't know. And I also thought your comments were very respectful about coaches and mentors and needing that. I've done a lot of that in my prior career. I also left my corporate career 12 years ago and went full-bore into my artist career. And you know, it's a journey and it helps to have someone by your side. So I just really wanted to say, thank you for sharing, Patrick. Thank you for adding the wonderful questions to get into Meg's story. It is very inspiring. And I think my takeaway was when you said that you drove towards your audience first, you know, that you have to be responsive to that in order to create what you are most inspired by. And they'll follow you there if you give it initially what they need. And lastly, I just want to say I did a bit of promotion where I took a piece of art and I put a note on it, "Be yourself; everyone else has already taken." And Oscar Wilde said that over a hundred years ago. And I use that frequently, but nevertheless, very important message.

Megh Knappenberger: Thanks, Sari.

Patrick Shanahan: Awesome. Thank you. Love Oscar Wilde. Okay, Sandra, you're up next. Go ahead, Sandra.

Sandra: Thanks, Meg. Thank you, Patrick. It's so wonderful to hear you and be with you almost. So I have a question. I'm here in New York City, one of the greatest places to sell art and be an artist. And I'm starting out, been doing this for a year now. I'm curious, like with regard to the story about the person vomiting in your booth and not selling anything, like all the way out to the streets with my prints, I'll take some shots on Instagram. I'm in a year, I would say a year and a half of doing this. I started drawing and painting during the pandemic again and had to put that aside for many, many years. I actually got into film school with my painting but then drifted from that and now I'm painting again. So I guess my question is like, what were the things that you specifically did that you found were beneficial when sales were like non-existent in the beginning? I mean, I'm a people person, happy to talk to anyone on any corner about anything, so that's never really my issue. It's just more like I'm sitting on the corner of the financial district with tourists everywhere and they're looking at my art prints and they're like, wow, cool thing of the Empire State Building, but they're not buying it, right? So it's just how do I go from sharing, showing, connecting to the purchases?

Megh Knappenberger: That is a great question and welcome back to painting. I feel like so many people found their way back during the pandemic, that's really cool. I think you need to just keep at it. I couldn't be a year and a half, and while that feels like an eternity, it is so fresh in terms of building a following and getting things going. I also think it's important to be mindful of where you're selling things and what the perception is of you being in that place. So if you're on the corner in the financial district, it's kind of like, what is the perception of the work? Is it like you're a busker or like you're somebody who's, you know, like the people who are like the statues, like are people perceiving your work as valuable and fine art if they see you on a street corner? And would they see the same work differently if they saw it shared by somebody on social media who was like a New York, I don't know, like tourism New York person, and they're like, the finest person here. So I think, you know, thinking about like, look at yourself through the lens of how the people you want to buy your work, how do they see you? And then like, is it, is it at the right level? They might just be perceiving your work as low. So try selling it in another place.

Patrick Shanahan: Love that. Try another area for sure. Laura, you had your hand up, then it went down. So I saw your place in line. Go ahead.

Laura:Oh, thanks. Again, fellow Chicagoan, I guess my journey has been switched a little bit in the sense that I'm doing a lot more commissions than others. And I think your comment about telling the story is really important. And for me, that's been a really great testing ground for me to really talk about my process with my only purchaser, because most of it is custom. And I've gotten a lot of learning of where the customers, I know Patrick will talk a lot about friction of where the questions are. And from that, I'm using it on my Instagram posts to answer some of those questions. So I've opted and I've actually gotten a lot of great content for my social media because of that. So for those of you that are doing real art fairs, I think that's really valuable.

 But I do want to say one thing that I noticed about your Instagram right from the beginning is that your personality shown through the way that you talk, it came across, you seemed like a real person, you seem very approachable and all of that kind of stuff. And so I guess there's all these templates that are out there and I've stopped using them. I would just tell everybody, like you said, just be yourself. People want to get to know you. So just don't try to always follow because we as artists, you know, we don't want to be like anybody else. So it was kind of confusing to me when everybody tries to mimic. And I think that comes across to others when you're not seeming real and people want to buy real art. They want to buy from a real person. But that's why I started following yours because you came across as genuine. I just wanted to say that.

Megh Knappenberger: Thank you.

Patrick Shanahan: Awesome. And I love the not following the templates, right? Or like copying what everyone else does. Like being you is the only thing that matters. The templates and the stupid music and the transitions that get all the likes and comments and shares, that does nothing for anyone except stroke your ego. Be you, right? Be, do you, show what makes you tick. I don't see you doing any of that stuff. You're like, what is the point? I'm gonna go on a side tangent, right? I'm gonna fight. Dave, you're up next. Go ahead, Dave.

Dave:Hey, Meg. I want to say first of all, I don't know where you get your crystal ball because one thing that Meg does really, really well in the Kansas City area is following trends. So when KU wins the basketball championship in 2022, Meg was already on top of it. When the Chiefs won the Super Bowl last year, Meg actually had someone on the field that was capturing, that was actually like, you know, giving her materials as the confetti from the field to put in her art. When KC Current got really big, our women's pro soccer team and started to actually, you know, get some momentum and actually become really big in Kansas City, Meg was already on top of it. So, you know, when it comes to her marketing and just her ability to see what trends are happening in our market is amazing because, you know, it's not like that she's like going out and just making a painting of, you know, landmark in Kansas City. She's actually following the trends that are actually out there within the Midwest and actually getting in front of that. Like the whole Ted Lasso thing, I mean, you know, she did this season of Ted Lasso thing last year and then with Ted Lasso ending this year, you know, I mean, that really blew up. What I want to know, Meg, is, you know, marketing has always been hard for any artist and, you know, the Facebook thing and doing Instagram seems to be really, you know, doable. You just get on there and do what you need to do. You also do your own, are you doing your own weekly email marketing also? And are you kind of still following the Art Storefronts calendar when it comes to the email marketing part?

Megh Knappenberger: Great question and thanks for the kind words, Dave. I believe you are OC, you got it. I am not a notification user for sure. So one of the things about this that you said is that marketing is hard for all artists and I think it's really important to acknowledge that like marketing is hard for all artists. But why? And I think many of us, myself included, especially have this romantic notion that we're going to be in like a sunny, beautiful studio painting all day with people doing all the other things for us. And like, I mean, maybe someday if you can instill a business to be that big to support that many employees, like if you think about the reality of that, like now to expect that all of our time should be spent making art and any other time, it's a pain in the ass. Like we all have to let go of that. Like bare minimum, like and then Patrick O'Brien, one of our, I better hate you for saying this too, like 50-50, like 50% of your time, you're creating 50% of your time, you are marketing and you are doing the administrative business, all the other things you have to do, like you got to order canvas, you gotta, you know, pay your studio rent. Like it's, it is not realistic to expect that we should be spending all of our time on doing art. And any other time it's like, like I hate this or like, oh sales, like we're all, if you are selling your work, you're a business. And if you're a business, in order to make money, you have to make sales, which makes you a salesperson and you have to sell things. Like these are just things we have to accept. This is part of it, unless you just want to make art to make art and not make any money off of it. So I think there's like common things about artists as being an artist and all these things that we need to just like let go of and accept that like these sort of, these are the things. And then once we get there, doing the marketing, it's not always easy, but it's easier when we can accept and appreciate it as like part of the process. It's important. This is how I connect with people, how I tell stories and finding ways to make it fill your cup. So like the way it fills my cup, under asking about weekly email marketing, I do write that and I focus on trying to tell a story and then just to do like the other part of my creative process, which is like sharing some of that research or storytelling and that, you know, the long form and the way that it gets written and it shares a lot of photos, like whether best practices, like I kind of don't care because it makes me continually do it and people do respond to those emails still like, oh yeah, once upon a time I had a story too. And I had a straight rapport with people because of those. So and I do, I kind of go on and off following the calendar. I'm not going to be a follower because I sometimes I'm on projects that kind of like coincide with it. But a co-pilot has really helped me to capitalize on sales at the sales times that I wouldn't have otherwise run. And it's helped keep, you know, summer has traditionally been a slower time for me sales wise and it had not this summer because of that. So, so yes, follow the calendar by way of it.

Patrick Shanahan: And I completely love what you said. I mean, you know, with the best practice is 95% of it just doing the thing. Did you lose the opportunity? Did you ship it right? Did it go out like that's totally a huge, huge part of it. Okay. Great question. Next up, Jim Peters.

Jim:Hey, Meg, thank you for doing this today. Hey, I've always had a question about transformative art and I'm sure you know that term. And I'm wondering if that's what you exercised when you did your initial catering piece.

Megh Knappenberger: I don't know what you mean by transformative art. Can you explain it?

Jim:Okay. Well, if you do something like, for example, you do a celebrity and you copy a photograph and do it verbatim and make it look just like a photograph, then it's copyright infringement. But if you do something that is really sort of an implication of that person with your own style, then it's transformative art. It's all about the legal sense of using things like the KU bird in your art. So that's my question. Did you have a legal right to use that initially or did, how did that come about?

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah. So this is, I would say one of the most common questions I get from art store friends and other artists. It's nested in the chat like seven times already.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, so I always get in trouble.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah. So I will cover it. I like to look at this in two ways. So for the KU, University of Kansas Jayhawk logo, yes, I have licensing granted to me from the university to use that icon and they receive a royalty percentage for every sale that I make. So when I created that work, I did so to get the licensing approval. If I didn't have licensing approval for that or the other landmarks on campus, I could not sell that. That is a very, very clear cut, like don't take a logo and paint the logo and then sell the work without getting licensing. Because at the very, that is very, very clear where it is because it is a corporation, a big company, like don't paint the Nike swoosh, don't do any of that. So when it comes to things like painting portraits of people, like you said, I can't just go out and take, I didn't give my own photo of Jimi Hendrix, who is not alive anymore. So I have to work from source imagery for that. And what I'm creating in the work, whether or not it is considered transformative, would rely upon a, you know, there's like a certain ratio. It's all very blurry murky. I would need a copyright attorney who's going to come after me. Is it probably like the Jimi Hendrix, you know, people who manage his estate with whom I'm trying to get it licensed, by the way. My goal is always to get it formally licensed, but it is not always possible. So when I'm painting a portrait of somebody's face, I am weighing like, what are some risk factor here for me? And I am always saving a percentage of the sales of that piece in case somebody comes after me. Because here's the cool thing. If

I paint Dolly Parton and they come after me, that means I'm on their radar. And then I can say, cool, actually, I've been saving. I would love to give you 10% of all the sales. And also, could we talk about how I could continue to give you 10% of all these sales? They might say yes. They might say, give us your money and stop. They might say, continue giving us your money. There are a lot of different ways these legal things can go. And so I think it's just having an open mind and the preparedness for like, if you are doing a piece that gets on somebody's radar, especially like a celebrity. This is also to say, I know you guys probably all saw the like the big court case that came down with the Andy Warhol piece and the photographer's piece. That all kind of falls under the same thing. If the photographer says like, stop using that or give me a percentage of your sales for life, just being told or being caught is not the end. And it's just simply opening a conversation. And you might have to pay back some of the royalties for that thing. And like just be prepared to pay back royalties on the stuff. But I would say that really only applies for things that are more amorphous, like celebrity pictures and people where it's a little harder to define where that image came from than it is for like the Nike corporation to catch wind of your painting and be like, stop using our logo. But you know, fan art, stuff like that. It's pretty rare that when you're doing something complimentary and like a fan and to be like called out and to say, stop doing something. So I think that I think about the risk of all of it, but I don't not do something just because there's no way I can get it licensed. So I'm not an intellectual property attorney. I have one. And if there were something that happened, I would know who to go to. But I think for all of us, I'm a small fish in a pretty big pond. I'm not a social media, not purchasing a painting just because I'm afraid I might get sued. It's like, and also many of those have a donation component to something meaningful to that person. Like that all feels awesome.

Patrick Shanahan: What a fantastic answer. What a genius hack too. Like the most difficult thing to do is get past the gatekeepers to the person that actually makes the decision on whether or not you're going to be able to license something. When I say most difficult, damn near impossible, right? Damn near impossible. And you know, that is a clever little hack that I imagine in your career is going to work out for you because it's all about starting a conversation.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah, well, that's it.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah, amazing. Judith, you're up next. I'll let you know when you get it. Mic icon bottom left-hand corner.

Judith:Okay, sorry about that.

Patrick Shanahan: That's okay.

Judith:It's been a pleasure to be listening to you, Meg, and I haven't been active in a few months because I've been traveling and then had some health issues, but I haven't made any questions. I'm 83 years old. I've been painting for a while and now I'm more serious about selling my art. And I don't know social media. I'm on Instagram and Facebook because Art Storefronts has told me to do that. But I don't know really how to get followers. I was told to post something every day. I got a few more people by doing that. I'm ready to gear up again. And do you have any advice for me?

Megh Knappenberger: Oh, well, I love that you are focusing on selling your work. And I think talking about your story and talking about how you were pursuing your art career at 83, like I don't want to call attention to too much to your age, but I think that it's pursuing it and then talking about like what type of work you're making and your story and your life is that is the best way to get new followers to finish. Because like Patrick said, and like we'll all say a million times, I'm drilling over and over again, people don't buy what you do. They buy why you do it. That's like a classic Simon Sinek quote. And it's true for every everything that you ever buy ever like people, you are buying things, whether you are conscious of it or not, because you feel something about that brand or you trust them or like them. And it's the same thing for us as artists. Nobody can tell our story better than us. So we even talk about why we make it work better than us. And that's what people really want to see. They want to know like, well, why did you paint that? How did you do that? Tell me why you have a personal tie to that. Tell me about your, you know, you were up here and that's interesting. And so did I. And like it's social media. That's the cool thing about it is that we can use it as a tool to to tell our stories and and do it in so many different ways. So I would just start I think by maybe practicing writing some of these things down and like comparing some of those stories with just images. That's like a really simple way to not complicate it too much, not try to make like, you know, complicated reels and all that stuff. Like I think just putting in a little paragraph and just starting to like tell your story first and then that is and then there's a lot of other tactics through like Patrick can probably link and there's like art storefronts guidebooks and ways for growing your following and curated strategies getting into the habit of like how are you going to entertain people and how are you going to tell them your story your social media like start start practicing that part of it and then it'll you'll get back through there.

Patrick Shanahan: And I I would also say Judith like, you know, being 83 and and not being super native to social media and having it be confusing. I'm 44 and it's confusing as hell to me. They're constantly moving the buttons around. I don't understand how to find things. I'm supposed to be a social media marketing expert. I can't even get into Facebook to get my stats because they've hidden it in 65 different menus. It's supposed to be awkward and annoying. That's never going to go away. And then when you realize that you're like, ah, I'm just going to go for it. I'm just going to go through it and click and move and do everything else. So stay encouraged and like, you know, there's so many avatars that are coming on like Judith where it's this is like the most beautiful thing of your guys location. There's no off switch. There's no off switch. It's with you for whatever God gives you on this planet. And then when you contemplate the number of years that you have left to to like keep going and and have purpose later in life and still be able to sell and have a business, it's insane. It's amazing. Do I love marketing? I love marketing. As soon as I'm retired, am I going to still be marketing? No, no. Like I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. Like where's my artistic pursuit? Right? Like I want to go cook or or maybe I'll start photography. I don't know. But great questions Judith and welcome back. Okay, Janie, you're up next. Go ahead, Janie.

Janie:Hi there. Thank you, Megan. It's been great. I've written down a lot of stuff that you were talking about. I have a very basic question. I am new like the last woman and I'm suddenly just starting. I just got my first sale of an original.

Patrick Shanahan: Nice. Hey, everybody clap.

Janie:I wanted to ask, how did you mail that item? Did you take it to be professionally wrapped to be shipped? My husband says making sure you get a signature and insurance. And then once you've got it going, let's say I I do a show or something for my daddy's son and I I have to sell. But did you and your husband wrap and ship or do you have a professional do it?

Megh Knappenberger:Well, welcome aboard and congratulations on your sale. That's huge. And yes, I was asking the same question when I first started out to some of the other members of our store, like how in the hell do you pack up your originals? Because this is a thing like we all have to deal with it. And when I first I have one great hack for future sales that I'll share. So remember, so you can do several different things. One thing you can do is just take the piece directly to the UPS store or to FedEx and pay them and they will pack it securely and ship it out. This is kind of expensive. So you need to like batch fill in the pricing on your originals on your website to allow for this. Typically it depends on the size and the piece. Typically it's like $100 to do that. And like I think I should the last time I shipped a piece there, it was like a four foot by six foot piece and I had done a pack and I think it was like 400 bucks. So keep that in mind as you guys are setting up the pricing originals. So you can definitely do that. There are also people now what I do is there's a person in Kansas City who comes to the studio, brings the box and packs and ships them in for me. So that eliminates me having to load them out to my car or in many cases they're too big to fit in my car. So now I have somebody come and do that for me. But you can do that also. The hack I would say is for originals, especially if you're doing commissions for somebody who's out of state, order the canvas online and have it shipped to you and then you have the box. So the perfect size and then when you ship it back, you don't have to pay to have it. So I do that a lot, especially with like larger pieces where they build a crate for the canvas to come in and I have the crate and then I just like pack it back up and then have and then you have somebody come pick it up. You can schedule a pickup with UPS or FedEx to come get the piece too so you don't have to load it out.

Patrick Shanahan: I love that. And that's, you know, that's that's also what we recommend always with the, you know, well, I have to hand sign my prints or my limited editions. It's like, okay, have them pack it, ship it to you, gently unwrap, quick sign, right back, same packaging, out it goes. So that's a variation of that. And I love that so smart. Okay, Karen, you're up next.

Karen:Thank you. Amazing, amazing presentation, Meg. Fantastic. Thank you. I'm going to go kind of fast with a question. I'm curious about art retreats and art residency programs. I've been researching them lately. They look very inspiring. Have you done them? What are your thoughts on that? And I'm curious about everybody else here too. Have they gone on them? Are they inspiring or worth it?

Megh Knappenberger: I love this question and this like plays so hard to my romantic ideal and just like going away somewhere and making art for months. For me personally, because I have small kids, it's unrealistic. I can't leave for that long and go to a residency now. I hope as I get older and my kids are a little easier, I will and hope to do this someday somewhere. But I don't have personal experience. But I think getting away as a FedEx artist is tied into just like really diving in on something is great. But also imagine a vacation too. If it sounds really good, you might end up just sleeping in the whole time after a week.

Patrick Shanahan: Classic. If anyone has responses to that and you want to throw in the chat, you certainly can. Okay, Charles, you're up next. Charles.

Charles:Hi, Meg. Thanks for being here. Your story to me is fascinating. I love how you look at how you do your stuff and you're looking at trends and reverse engineering your career. I'm new to Art Storefronts. I think I'm just in my first month. I kind of have a problem for myself in that, I mean, it's a very big problem to have. So I signed up for Art Storefronts and within the first month, I've gotten about 20 commissions.

Patrick Shanahan: I know. I know. It's a problem.

Charles:Yeah.

Patrick Shanahan: Carry on.

Charles:Yeah. Essentially, I bowed out. I was going to be laid off because of the writer's strike in Hollywood. I'm in animation. And as soon as I found out I was going to be laid off, I got on Facebook and this is even before I was on Art Storefronts and started like just showing some of the things that I'd done for the past year. And I hit a very specific market up where my cabin is on the mountains outside of L.A. And I do dogs and I do cabins and like people love their dogs, their cabins up there. So that's pretty much my truck right now is are those things that and I literally I literally could make a living at this. Now, the problem is what I what I'm finding is, is like I really want to do other pieces that I actually can sell as prints and like, you know, like you're saying, sell a million copies of, you know, the one thing that you do instead of doing one thing for one person and only getting your luck at it doing that one thing. I started showing my stuff at a gallery last week and I got a commission from that too. And now I'm starting to see well, some of my commissions can be made into prints and people will buy them too. So I'm now looking at it like that. So I guess like what do you do with a problem like that? Because I need to like get off of that tree, you know, like get away from that. I have like four months of work ahead of me that I have to do, you know, and I love it. I mean, I'm glad, but you know, I've been wanting to go in another direction.

Megh Knappenberger: Oh man, I have so many similar feeling stories. So I can relate to those so much. First of all, welcome to Art Storefronts. And I would say sorry about getting laid off, but it sounds like things are going okay. So, so that's, that's good. Okay, so not a lot of commissions. So for one, I would say if you feel it sounds like you might be hitting a cap point. So what I think you need to do is like cap off your commissions right now and say, I'm not accepting any new commissions until 2024. You can leave it open-ended but collect those people's email addresses and sort of in a box somewhere where then email that list of people when you're ready to reopen. So like cap it off now because a lot's going to probably change from you between now and four months from now since you're so early for one and you're probably your prices are going to go up. So you don't want to lock in people for commissions just like all I'm going never. I'm evasive because if you lock a minute of the price now and we don't need to worry until 2025 and this happened to me, this is this is set up so hard people are locked into paying you X amount, but you're actually if you were taking it out of that how much you'd be charging way more. So when you cap people up and then bring them in later, then you can charge them what you're charging at that moment. So I only take a moment like right now. I'm only taking one like one at a time. So and then I'm literally learning new lessons from this is like you will do more of the work that you show people that you do. So if you're just showing cabins and dogs, you're going to do people are not that creative when they're asking for commissions. People will commission you to do the work they see that you can do. So if you don't want to do cabins and dogs, you need to do some other work and show that work. I did a portrait on somebody's chat like a few years ago and it is like the dopest painting ever, but I've never showed anyone because it's like I will paint people's cats until the day I die if I show them. So like be mindful of that. And I would say also with these pieces, set the expectation with a commission or that you retain the rights to your work and then you retain the right to make reproductions of that work forever. And if they would not like you to do that, here's the price for that. So they can buy you out and that piece can just see for them, but it's going to cost, you know, 4X or 5X or 10X or whatever. I have a commission contract now and there's a clause and it's been a thought where people can buy out like the full rights to the piece if they don't want me to make reproductions of it. So you can do that, but just setting expectations because if you are going to make reproduction, I did that with some early pieces and thankfully as a family member, but they were kind of pissed that I was selling reproductions of it. They didn't know that. So that was a lesson learned and thankfully with somebody who could like easily forgive me. So just make sure photograph everything you do like photograph it at high res and hang on to it and then you might be able to sell reproductions to the future. And also one like final note on this, this is something I just learned this year. I'm being very specific about only taking on.

Megh Knappenberger:Commissions and at work and any work that I can I make reproduction stuff because my time is valuable and I'm painting a portrait of somebody's grandma. Like, I love that episode, but I can't sell that to anybody else. So, the price is... and people can choose to pay that or I can move on to something else. So be mindful of taking on and prioritizing as a work, then you can make reproductions of until you have that, you know, and it isn't really like running the business and then it can kind of... then it can take on some of those more specialty commissions.

Patrick Shanahan: What a great question, and I got to chime in because I'm just laughing here a little bit inside. Yeah, number one in terms of the commissions, the difficulty with them, specifically animals, and I want to talk specifically about dogs because the dogs are different than the cats a little bit. Everybody wants a commission painting of themselves or their dog or themselves and their dog or whatever it is, their dog. Everyone loves that. You know what no one loves? Buying anything that is someone else's dog. Now that doesn't 100% apply to cats. I found the cats are a little more generic and I was just laughing because I was like he should quit because you're so right and completely agree with all of your advice. It's like, you know, you keep going down that path, you're going to be in that path forever. It's like I want to quit drinking, well then stop going to the bar, right? Let's stop going to the bar. Um, but I was laughing because a book of cats and cabins in the San Gabriel mountains or whatever the mountains are would be hilarious and that would totally sell. Cats and cabins, it's got a ring to it too. And no use a name here to this so... Okay, I gotta keep moving. I gotta keep moving. This time construction, I don't know what you said about the buyout clause too because even if you have no intention of ever selling them to reproduce it, that would just be a way to increase your AOV. So, hello, great advice, Sarah, totally stealing that. Uh, I will need, I will do citations where required.

Megh Knappenberger: Okay.

Patrick Shanahan: Was it common TMA like I'll say your name Meg? I stole this from Meg. Yeah, yeah, whatever. Okay, Hannah, you're up next, go ahead.

Hannah:Okay, I maybe I just missed it but what year since you joined Art Storefronts did you purchase Co-Pilot and um do you wish you would have done it sooner or kind of what... talk to me about how Co-Pilot works specifically for you, please.

Megh Knappenberger: Sure, uh, I purchased it... I... I feel like when they were like doing the big launch events saying like four months... I think that's only four... yeah, it's only four months old, so she couldn't have purchased it.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah.

Megh Knappenberger: Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, I would do... do I wish I had it in four? Absolutely, yes. And do I wish... and one of the things we've been talking about for the future is like how do I tie more of my, uh, here's this video of Manny painting, I think, uh, stuff into it. So I think that's like the future I'm in. Yeah, we're gonna go with that. Yeah, I mean not... we're not there yet but like I think it's a beautiful way to like take things that we've already thought once really hard about and like let it go out and like make babies, um, you know, on the internet.

Patrick Shanahan: Awesome, sorry I got distracted by something. Okay, Janine, you're up next, keep it pithy.

Janine:Janine, happy medium, I want the worst of the vendor. Um, Meg, it's really great... I'm gonna try but anyway because I have a bad internet too... it's great really great to meet you here in this forum. Um, I joined Art Storefronts at this 2020 right at the lockdown painted at the start but you were the first people that I recall, um, Art Storefronts, uh, mentioning and showing your, um, you know, that you were, um, basically having success with on the platform and of course the, you know, they would have that with that and it's great, it's really exciting. I appreciate a lot of the practical tips that, um, we've given today really helpful. Um, like yourself, I'm a graphic designer, I'm... I'm, uh, my business is 40 years old, I'm older and I'm sick of it. Yeah, I'm sick of it, that's... that is was a huge success for many years primarily in Los Angeles, started out in New York and I really, uh, loved doing it but I don't love it anymore because the industry has really become different and I don't need to get into all that. Um, but I also have a piece of art that, um, I can scale that I want to possibly, if not license, just scale and sell lots of it. Oh, it's more than I haven't been and it had took I think it's aware what I'm talking about. I've kind of gotten my marching orders from Nick especially to really get more eyeballs on it and that's what I need to do. I had a lot of confidence in the art and I... it's a very popular seller but on a very, very tiny level so basically I want to ramp it up and sell out more of it. Um, hearing all the different things that you've done have been very helpful but is there something that you you would, um, you know, just name as a very, um, important thing to focus on? I know with Nick is, you know, good expand your audience. I... I am not... I've only gone 500 emails, that's not very many.

Megh Knappenberger: A 500 is a long when we compare it to zero so I would say waiting... I'm getting 500 and, uh, I... I always loved connecting with other dramatic designers I didn't totally get it and my husband is still one so I did have that industry is changing. Um, can I ask what the subject matter of the piece is? I think that that might determine my answer.

Janine:Yeah, I muted her so is it a CD?

Megh Knappenberger: No, no, it's great and I'm encouraging her on it. So she's got like nursery room style letters of the alphabet kind of painted out, um, things would be in a nursery but really cool kids are too. Yeah, uh-huh. Yes. Okay, uh, I think, uh, continue doing all the things you're doing so putting it out to your existing audience on, uh, social media, on your email list and then, uh, curators, uh, giveaways, curator strategy, people who are like, uh, I hating the race like mommy blogger but like mommy bloggers, so true for sure, uh, and then, uh, PR and, uh, we didn't really touch on this today but I think this is important to talk about, uh, PR can be huge and the way PR works is not that like somebody from about a newspaper like finds you and this goes back to this like they come and find you a knock on your door and they're like you're an artist in there like PR is strategically pinched and it is like around time says a year and it's like specifically around events and things like you get PR by going out to get PR it doesn't come to you. So like any PR that I've gotten if you see me like I haven't been on the news magazines these are all strategically pitched things that I'm intentionally going out into getting for the most sometimes they get away to other things that I didn't plan but for the most part like those are things that are attentional. So if you think that you're not getting PR because no one's fighting you it's because you're not trying to go get it. The news is like constant they need news they need stories so yours is like a perfect like be on in the morning news segment about like acute ways to decorate your nursery maybe there's a time happening here when people are like more likely having kids like maybe there's a seasonality to that, um, or like see if there's like some sort of like time of a year tied and you can like work your story in and like pitch the angle out to say like hey September 8th is National Nursery Day like here's my stuff and then see what happens. I think, uh, news stories help to add a credibility to your brand and then you can put that on to your stuff and say like as a feature by Fox 4 news and then people are like oh this artist must be a big deal because they've been on the news just because you knew that being on a news gives you credibility that's like a secret that it, uh, not in everybody knows so try try hitting other people to talk about your work at the same time that you're talking about it and trying to pitch your wagon to somebody who has a really big audience of the people who would know bananas for writing the native Bernadette in all history letters which would be a great example.

Patrick Shanahan: Awesome so true. All right Jonathan, you're up next go Jonathan.

Jonathan:Hey how's it going man, oh and a couple quick questions. I am a new, uh, uh, stay home dad wondering if you had any, uh, advice or artists with the kids.

Megh Knappenberger: How old are your kids?

Jonathan:Uh, he's about to turn two in three weeks actually.

Megh Knappenberger:Uh, that's awesome good for you being new stadium dad I think it can be kind of, uh, like disorienting to switch, uh, into being a stay-home parent my experience with that was through the pandemic actually I was like whoa what so, uh, uh, my advice would be to... I touched on this a little bit early earlier on but to take it take it day by day and think about like what are the things that I can absolutely rely on and instead are like set things and what things are unpredictable and especially when it comes to like your schedule and your time and like your to-do list and what you're trying to like what we're trying to get it done try to only put those things into the actual number of hours you have to work and try and make it realistic like you might be able to work every night between like eight eleven but like if you were calling with a two-year-old all day like you're gonna be tired and you're not going to want to work so if your kid naps pretty dependently while that might not be a long-term thing you can plan on you might get an hour where you can do one hour and maybe and then like build your schedule into that so that your to-do list for the week is simply like you know five hours of work and you can like notch them all offices at the end of the week you can be like I did it it was awesome you can't set your expectation to be that you're doing the amount of things that somebody's doing it the whole time is and you can't try to do it while you're also with your kid it doesn't work so you just you have to like do a little bit at a time and then as your kid gets older you can like do a little more but also when they start up happening it's like near impossible to do and work while they're awake so just you know do do what you can with what you have and, uh, don't try to do... don't set your expectations of yourself too high because it'll still be disappointing.

Patrick Shanahan: Strong drinks as well strong drinks at least and and Jonathan we can only do one question so yeah that was your one. I gotta I gotta keep moving through because we're on the run that we're getting up to the hard stop here. Okay Andrea, you're up next.

Andrea:Hello how are you thank you for being here today, um, I guess I'm most important question is is, uh, well it's kind of what I... I resonated with something you said that you didn't want to turn out originals and I feel the same way I... I really wanted meal to, um, focus a lot on prints because I don't make a million originals. I... I were large and in oils and it's time consuming and heavy layered soap, um, I'm trying to close to that because I'm okay with selling my originals I do want the prices of it more and I also was listening when you said you know charge what you think it's worth it I know it's a little scary if you're not sure how you do that but I don't think that the gallery I'm in is charging enough and I would rather sell them a lamb but so that's kind of a combo question I guess maybe you could just fill me in on how you can see on those two things.

Megh Knappenberger: Sure, uh, I mean I think you might have just answered your own question if... if I can be so blunt. If you don't think your gallery is charging enough and you should sell it on your own then they should pull out a gallery and sell it on your own. I had a... I have feelings about galleries I think everybody needs to follow their own path do what works for them but, uh, they need to be working pretty hard to get it 50% of that amount and, uh, you're also not really retaining a relationship with the people that they sell the work to you don't own that they own it so you want to own your people and relationships stories so I would say if you don't feel good about that then like listen to your gut there and pull out, um, and then as far as making, uh, selling more prints of your originals, uh, what we may need to do for a little while is to take your time that you spend in painting and your time marketing and shift a little harder into marketing to give that energy of selling prints going so in order to sell reproductions you need to have an audience of people you know there's one person but a lot of people can buy and so we might need to just spend more time doing things like sending emails social media doing curator giveaways doing some of those press and PR things that I was just talking about previously and away and growing the funnel and the top so that there are more people in it and, uh, and then once that kind of gets moving then you can bring it back balance you can paint and work on your originals a little more.

Patrick Shanahan: Okay great answer. Right Aylin, you're up next go Aylin.

Aylin:I, um, live like my mom embarrassed with me very, very basic question and you mentioned briefly that you kind of started in like booths and I'm having a very, very end of the stages of my own business and I wanted like a custom market in booths Club of seating is kind of in a girl by me or, um, so I didn't know you have like any recommendation and symptoms of like scrub rehearsal experience where a good starting I guess it's like somewhere it would be is the work is the work ready right now.

Megh Knappenberger: I'm into the process of like getting some inventory in other than I remember into the best living I saw the article like participating I need to do it now so I'm just trying to engage doing it.

Patrick Shanahan: Meg I've got the good one on this. Okay is your is your house is your house capable of having a garage sale? Uh, you might need to do a friend's house with a garage sale. You can... what I don't want you to do is wait I don't want you to wait on anything I want you to get whatever work you have and try to get it in front of eyeballs and so I love the faker garage sale and move all the crap out of the garage and try to sell it and actually you could care less about the garage sale you just had you're selling the art but you could also you know set up somewhere where you know there's good foot traffic and just throw all the works up on a table and you know somebody comes and yells at you the worst they're going to do is just say take it down but I've got people that live in the beach community people do this at the beach all the time they don't even ever chase them out don't wait even if the season's gonna pass you up like get into it Aylin immediately do not wait because you don't know what you don't know and your mom is awesome for putting you in here by the way love that. Okay, um, Mark you're up next sorry I see you're still online but you've already had a question I'm trying to be democratic all right Mark go ahead.

Mark:Hey that's following Patrick how are you? Good Meg thank you so much I'm a very two-parter question since Andrew said I can only ask one good hack did you hire a PR for and if so how did she find another.

Megh Knappenberger: Uh not until this year so up until now no the way that I was able to get PR in the past was either through trading it out with like Brandon's as a family and people I know you knew a person who could put something in front of somebody so, uh, before then no this year I did the way that I met that person was through, uh, kind of donating work to a lot of charity events in a town and when I donated these pieces I often get invited to the event and there's one in PR guy who's just like always there always my point of contact for all the things very well connected so that was how, uh, how I met Adam Justice by being a guy about town.

Patrick Shanahan: Great thank you all right sorry something derped out when we Zoom there all right next up is Cassie go ahead Cassie.

Cassie:And it's regarding like events, um, like those those types of things, um, so I'm in the earlier Nebraska work from, um, work full-time have small children, um, I usually get a lot of you get commissions other than the majority of money they'll you know pets and things like that, um, I also did one like this is a big Niche, um, uh, convention last year which I did make like at least like twelve hundred dollars smaller you know smaller items but I didn't get a lot of back then, um, people will retrain to my site so my question regarding to you like how vital was it for you to when you started, um, and did you notice like it was excited for you reaching out and doing all those multiple like looser you know events or shows at the beginning of your, um, business or career?

Megh Knappenberger:Um, yeah I have a great question and I would say my answer you'll be able to relate to the reasons why because you have small kids also for me everybody everybody does things differently but for me doing shows, uh, did not work because, uh, they're always on weekends which then it's like getting a child care there's like a lot of flapping and you know crap stuff and when I sat down and did the numbers for like here's how much it costs to be at this convention we said you go to 1200 good sales like how much did it cost you to prep your inventory how much time did you spend and how much did it cost to be at the convention like did that end up being a wash for you when we were there, uh, I, I personally did the math on those things and it was like when I'm spending this at the time this much money and it costs this much here's how much I need to make when I do them and it just was like it... it did not work out for me especially when I factored in like on Snapchat you know higher child care all day and I need some help getting things in so doing things where you don't have to have an inventory, uh, and so like doing the curator doing giveaways Partnerships things, uh, online and through social media is you're a lot more nimble and that's just gonna work for you like I every day and and all those Sciences if you are working full-time and you have small kids your most precious resource it's time and you need to be like and you want to move from where you are into working full-time and have to be very strategic about the things you do be super high value like and at making you money or finding new customers so I think that's that is the key for you and I would say like bluntly like I think doing events is going to be kind of a waste of your time and I think you need to focus on other things Affairs and shows all the in-person stuff.

Patrick Shanahan: Awesome bravo it's hard it's just hard. Yeah even even without kit it's hard, um, great answer on that though. Terry, you're up next.

Terry:Well thank you for all of this and I got on those freaked out when we started talking about the, um, doing the portraits because I've been working on a project for a singer that I like very much and researching and practicing sketches and I have an idea for a painting and I really, um, I kind of thought ooh I can get in trouble for this somehow what is the prep do you reach out and contact these people before you make a thing for permission or how exactly for a light person a person who's living no I mean don't don't stop before you start like yes okay.

Patrick Shanahan: Oh sorry Meg you got muted I muted you what happened to my savage mutary, uh, okay don't stop before you start make the piece put it out there sell a hundred grand worth of it and then let's talk simple as that stated another way not legal advice I'm not attorney Vegas not in the truth it is easier yeah but like it's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission do not let it get in the way just just just crank it out and stop worrying about it it's just not a problem and you know nods are that it might never be a problem and if it's never going to be a problem then maybe people hate me for this through saying this especially the legal mind it is like you're you're dealing with a problem it's not a problem and then you've ended up spending a month and a half of your time dealing with a problem it's not a problem it's never going to be a problem.

Megh Knappenberger: Yeah right, um, yeah yes got Mike Warren in the pack said permission is also possible to get getting noticed is almost as hard somebody should put that on a t-shirt God that's so true it's it's yes seriously okay go through the worst possible case scenario and then you know it would all be good if you get noticed that's great like it's Donald Donald yeah look at this picture is sitting around yes we got sued e you know I totally rats all right Muffy and Karen and then Meg we will let you go and you've been so gracious with your time I really appreciate you go ahead and Muffy.

Muffy:Yeah all right thanks Patrick sale and I'm happy I I'm in the process of building a home in the studio right now and I've got a lot of extra work I've got to get rid of it what would be your best takeaways for how I could move forward before I moved into the studio.

Megh Knappenberger: Uh, I'm pretty sure that if there's a basement a sale or like a art sale playbooks and they put together so I would say follow that and then, uh, to turn on, um, there's like a turn on a notification like in a ding like there was like a ding and a bling in the background every time somebody bought something on that sale and I think it created is something kind of fun, uh, fun like fomo so set it up so that when you're when you get an email yeah when you get an email for a sale, uh, just set it turn on your phone to the day every time you get an email and then ask people buy things in the bathroom they'll hear that like yeah that was so good we haven't we have that in video in the vault somewhere but that was, uh, that was a wild one it's a long time that was years ago now crazy we link and they go by hard turn.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah I'm mad, uh, I've heard about you for a while too congratulations success, um, I... I have a couple questions, um, first was I just out of curiosity how did you get Jason Sudeikis involved once you've created your painting I know there was a charity element but, uh, and I was curious what he thought when you first approached it.

Megh Knappenberger: Um, I did not the charity approached me to make a piece for their annual fundraiser and Sudeikis is a friend of the charity owner and he comes in every year to be part of it I didn't know the meeting or any of that was going to happen until about six hours before so, uh, that was all just happened that he's autographed the original but that was not part of the process really I was just creating a painting as a, uh, auction item for a little charity and he I mean he liked it he was like smiled and it was weird it was more of a weird to read probably to see in the face of the person next to the Phoenix.

Patrick Shanahan: Yeah it's classic, um, yeah Meg amazing job totally appreciate your insights I learned a ton had a great time thank you raise the prices on your originals they're too cheap and yeah thank you appreciate it.

Megh Knappenberger: Thank you everybody.

Patrick Shanahan: Any parting words I should I should have at least given you that.

Megh Knappenberger: Uh no I'm excited I... I covered a lot of ground but do people want to DM me I mean I probably shouldn't open this Pandora's box but if you have follow-up questions, uh, it might take me a while to get back to you but I will.

Patrick Shanahan: To the 10,000 people watching this stream on Facebook and YouTube I am beg immediately with multi-point detailed questions she prefers a bullet point of at least 20. Um, yeah thanks Mike appreciate you everybody have a great rest of your weeks and, uh, we'll see y'all soon. Bye now.